this post was submitted on 25 Jan 2024
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Unpopular Opinion

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There's this rising narrative going around that if you ask specifically for a CIS partner, you're a transphobe. That could be true for some people but it's not fundamentally related to bigotry. Moreover, this narrative, the "if you only want a CIS mate then that is prejudice" is trampling on one of the most important rights a person can have: the right to choose who they want to get intimate with.

First of all, transmen are in fact men and transwomen are in fact women. Let's get that out of the way. This isn't a foot in the door for "trans this really isn't that" narratives. What this is about it is the freedom to choose who you want to be intimate with. That right is sancrosanct, it is absolutely inviolable.

And yes, there's plenty of issues that make transgender dating a special issue. If someone reveals their TG status they can be open to hate crimes and even deadly violence. However all marginalized groups are special in their own way. As a black man I don't think it's racist if a woman says she doesn't want to date a black man. I face oppression, too. My class is special in its own way. One group isn't more special than the other. None of us have the right to force ourselves upon those who don't want to be intimate with us, even by omitting who we really are.

Really, if you have to deceive or hide who you are in order to date someone, do you really want to date them? I wouldn't. That's not fair to you and you're denying them their right to choose who they want. What do you think will happen when the person wants a CIS mate and they discover the truth? They're going to get pissed and dump you. Now you have to shame them into staying with you: "If you loved me for real this wouldn't bother you"... that's not going to convince anyone. They're either going to leave, or they'll resent you forever. That's just how it is. You can be mad at that but that's about as effective as protesting the rising of the sun. There's just no way to win once you've gone down that road.

"I want a CIS mate" is not the same as "trans women are not women" - one is a preference, the other is harmful prejudice. On the flip side CIS people who do date trans people shouldn't be shamed for their choices either. A man should be free to date a trans woman and not catch flak about it. Trans people should be able to be openly trans and not face hate speech or threats to their well-being. This, without any exception whatsoever.

The fundamental fact is when you shame or worse abrogate people's right to choose who they want to get intimate with, it's not going to end well for you. All you're going to get is people who resent being coerced or bullied to date people they don't want to. And that's not something the country, or the world, will ever put up with. Except that right now, most people don't imagine they can be labeled a transphobe just for wanting a CIS mate. And unpopular opinion: that should be nipped in the bud.

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[–] GardenVarietyAnxiety@lemmy.world 188 points 9 months ago (22 children)

I'm a transwoman and I agree with you on this. When I was dating, I was upfront and when a guy said it was a deal breaker, it saved both of us a lot of time.

Most guys I talked to said it was a dealbreaker, and yeah it sucks. It makes you feel "othered." But I can't expect anyone to go outside their sexual comfort zone for a rando on Tinder.

Most of the guys were very polite about it all, too. And that's all you should need to do.

If someone's shaming you about it, that's a good sign they have something going on in their own life. Essentially it's their problem, not yours.

Hope this helps~

[–] GhostFence@lemmy.world 53 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Thank you for your response. I feel I must repeat in case it is ambiguous: I am absolutely against any form of trans shaming whatsoever. If you want to date a trans person, you should be 100% free to do so without negative social consequence.

[–] GardenVarietyAnxiety@lemmy.world 20 points 9 months ago

Not ambiguous. You're good 😜

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 30 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Oh boy do I have a load of dumb questions, if you'll humor me? For context, I'm a middle-aged, cis, white guy. Dated a lot the last few years, settled down and just married the finest woman I've ever known.

What does "transwoman" mean? LOL, I don't even know how to approach this. For me, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck, good enough. I'd date a transwoman that was, uh, "completely" a woman. Gods I hope you know what I mean.

OK, I'll go with my wife, maybe clear it up. She's a Filipina, unapologetically feminine. All else being the same, if she had been born with a penis, wouldn't care. Among 100 other things, I so love her femininity.

Am I embarrassing myself? Sure feels like it. Never had any trans friends, or even known any trans folks. Anyhow, I hope you understand I'm on your side, all the way. (That's not a cutesy slogan. I train, I carry, I mean it with all my heart. If it comes to it, no one is going on a train if I can help it.)

[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 14 points 9 months ago

No shame, my friend. People are still deciding/learning what accurate yet inoffensive terms are okay to use in a given situation. You care enough to be aware of the issue, and to me, that’s the most important thing.

Congratulations on your wedding!

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[–] sodalite@slrpnk.net 83 points 9 months ago (11 children)

on the flip side, people should be able to say they want a trans partner.

real talk though, no one should be deceiving anyone if they plan to start a healthy relationship with someone, period.

I'm stealth trans in public and don't feel it's necessary to come out to every one i meet or even work with. But if I'm flirting with someone or know someone has an interest in me, I respect them enough to let them know.

it all comes back to the idea that you don't need to know what someone's genitals look like unless you plan on fucking them.

[–] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 43 points 9 months ago (7 children)

I think I that's a concept that cis straight people don't get. You don't come out once. You have a big coming out, once, to friends and family. Then every new person you meet, you decide whether to tell them outright, whether to subtly tell them, or whether you don't tell them. Each time, you're considering if you'll meet them again, if it serves a purposes of it feels like hiding, your safety, whether it will affect their opinion of you and so be to your disadvantage etc. It's tiring.

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[–] TheDoozer@lemmy.world 47 points 9 months ago (27 children)

You should, of course, have your preferences, and your deal-breakers, and whatever else. So if you find someone you are interested in is trans, and that's a deal-breaker for you, that's fine.

But there is a difference between that and putting in your bio "No Trans People." Is being trans your only deal-breaker? What makes that a deal-breaker worth calling out, but not others? Before you put "No Trans" in your profile, I would ask you to consider that, if you are an athletic person and want an athletic person, would "No fat women" be something you would feel comfortable putting in your bio (even if that was a deal-breaker for you)? What would you think of someone who puts "No black people" in their bio?

If they have any sense, they will let you know either in their profile, in conversation before-hand, or during the first date or so (before things get intimate), and you can politely end things, just like if you found out they were Scientologists or several levels up in an MLM (or both). Hell, it may take until a third date, like finding out they don't just like, but can relate to Olivia Rodrigo's music. (In fairness, those three were objectively bad, but I don't know any of your non-trans related preferences, so I had to go with some things most people should consider deal-breakers).

The point is, people look for and look out for a lot of things, but I only ever hear people complain about it being rude to put "No trans." It kind of makes it clear that the person saying it has a particular issue beyond just dating preferences.

[–] GhostFence@lemmy.world 44 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Tact does matter. That is why I say "seeking cis man/woman" is better than "no trans man/woman". "No black people" is bad, "prefer SWM/SWF" is better and acceptable IMO (disclaimer: I'm black), "looking for athletic man/woman" is better than "no fat people", etc., just my opinion.

[–] TheDoozer@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago

I take your point, and agree. The positive (as opposed to the "No xxxx") seems generally to be more polite.

[–] Ataraxia@sh.itjust.works 28 points 9 months ago

You can change your weight. You can't change who you are. Lesbians don't want men. People not attracted to trans people cannot just chose to be attracted to them. And I have no oreferencws but do understand that sexuality is not something you chose.

[–] viking@infosec.pub 18 points 9 months ago

Before you put “No Trans” in your profile, I would ask you to consider that, if you are an athletic person and want an athletic person, would “No fat women” be something you would feel comfortable putting in your bio (even if that was a deal-breaker for you)?

I can see if someone is overweight, of a certain skin color or whatever other visible indicators you mention, and simply not like their profile, so a match would not occur.

I cannot (necessarily) see if someone is trans, so a match would potentially still happen.

So mentioning the "obvious" can be seen as harmful since you are effectively calling people out, while mentioning the "invisible" is merely stating a preference to reduce false positives.

[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 13 points 9 months ago

It would be the same as sexuality? If you're a straight bloke you'd want a cis woman, it's not comparable to race or fitness. It's about sexual compatibility.

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[–] squirmy_wormy@lemmy.world 44 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

1: not unpopular

2: if this is a scenario you are actually seeing in real life, you should find better people to hang out with.

[–] GhostFence@lemmy.world 16 points 9 months ago (3 children)

It's stuff I encounter online. But stuff online festers for years, and then erupts in real life. MAGA and QANON, for instance, was festering from USENET in the 1990s and forums thereafter. I watched it happen. Everyone ignored it, and now look where we are. MAGA of course is a whole different scale of true horror but still. This mentality I'm mentioning is festering. All cancers begin this way.

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[–] wolfeh@lemmy.world 43 points 9 months ago (8 children)

Who, exactly, is saying that having a sexual preference is bigoted? I've heard rumors about this argument, but never encountered it in the wild.

[–] Wogi@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Admittedly it's been a few years but I had this argument on Reddit and caught a ban from a handful of subs for hate speech for arguing that not wanting a trans partner was not the same thing as being anti trans.

I don't remember my exact phrasing, I did then and still do believe that trans rights are human rights, that trans people are in real danger at no fault of their own, and that their healthcare is important and should start early. But that doesn't mean I can be attracted to someone I know is trans, and I think that being trans should be divulged in a relationship, and divulged early.

That's a viewpoint that some, and I use the term lightly, radical activists don't want to hear, and will absolutely accuse you of transphobia. That doesn't mean it's common, or that the community at large agrees with it. But there are individuals who espouse that nonsense.

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[–] quams69@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago

The who in question is a man made of straw

[–] Ifera@lemmy.world 16 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

Personally, I have encountered in an odd situation. Gay dating app, trans woman being friendly, so I was friendly back, but told her I wasn't interested. She went ballistic, saying how I could live the dream, have a straight looking relationship, that surely a masc guy like me wanted that, and that I could still get dick with her, and when I told her that was not what I was looking for, at all, she went into the rant, calling me transphobic and saying that I was discriminating her.

I just blocked her and I will never be entirely sure if it was a troll or not.

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[–] TheActualDevil@sffa.community 37 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Am I weird in that I think it's weird to announce that kind of thing on a dating profile? Like, I'm on all the dating apps and people generally don't get access to me until there's a mutual agreement to match, right? Unless you're swiping on everyone or they're actively trying to hide it, are you matching with a lot of trans folk? Are you so inundated by these matches that you feel the need to announce these preferences up front? I can't imagine it's so many that you can't just have a polite conversation when it comes up and explain the preference? It's the whole need to announce it, knowing how it could come off, that makes people question the intent. If you were at the bar and someone you're attracted to comes up to talk, do you stop them and say "before you go any further, know that I only date cis people."?

[–] GhostFence@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Many of your points here are spot on. There's not a lot of trans people as a percentage of the populace. Maybe like 2-3% tops, so you're right, you're not going to run into hordes of trans people while swiping. And many of those do NOT want to hide who they are short term and are loathe to just up and hide it from a date long term. Let's make it clear there's no movement to trick people into dating trans people, to *further *derail any right wingers reading this to get their rageohol fix.

You are also right about the etiquette of it all. Tact and timing are important. "Before you go any further I only date cis people" is idiocy. But the fact is a lot of people do not want to date trans people and that's their right. We have to come to a happy medium where we respect that but (to address your legit and underlying concern) don't also let this "trans people are everywhere looking to trick us into dating them OMFG RUNNNNN!!" hysteria genie out of the bottle. I am definitely NOT here to foment that.

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[–] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 36 points 9 months ago

I'm genderfluid and I agree with you. Cis people shouldn't be tricked, manipulated or emotionally blackmailed into copulating with us just because we want a partner. Partners do have the right to know whether we're cis, trans or nonbinary.

[–] FatTony@lemmy.world 30 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (8 children)

one is a preference

Maybe for some. But for most it's not even a preference it is a sexual orientation. A preference can be negotiated. A sexual orientation is just the way that you are.

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[–] chaosppe@lemmy.world 25 points 9 months ago

I hope this isn't actually an unpopular opinion. People objectively have a type of what they do and don't want. Specification is a good thing and will help people find their match faster. The last thing a person, either trans or not trans would want, is to spend time with someone who will never work for them.

[–] FireTower@lemmy.world 24 points 9 months ago

The underlying issue is that dating apps just need better filters. An ideal one would be were you could filter out any deal breakers.

[–] ryannathans@aussie.zone 22 points 9 months ago (6 children)

How the hell does this have so many downvotes? Surely not from the crowd that preaches consent and freedom of choice?

[–] ziltoid101@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago

Nah I'm guessing because it's a popular opinion

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[–] Cyv_@kbin.social 22 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (8 children)

I'm trans. I think the reason people get upset is because of the reason behind the preference. That reason can be totally valid, to totally shitty, and people assume either the best or the worst depending on their perspective usually. A trans person seeing this might assume "oh boy another transphobe" while a cis person would think "yep and I won't date a person who owns cats because I'm deadly allergic" and carry on.

On top of that a blanket "I won't date trans people" rule tends to ignore "outliers" like nonbinary, intersex, or gender fluid people, which can feel pretty bad when the underlying reason doesn't fit the actual real life scenario you might be in.

Here's a few reasons behind the preference that I can think of:

  • I'm straight and want bio kids - Fair enough, either your partner is cis or they aren't compatible for that goal, or you're getting into the nonbinary grey area.

  • I don't want to deal with the extra baggage, potential judgement from peers, or mental/physical health comorbidities that come with transition - kinda bleh but its your choice and only you can really decide what you're willing to invite on yourself, but it feels crappy for trans people who definitely didn't ask to be trans either.

  • I'm attracted to specific genital configurations - that's your preference, but it sort of ignores any post op trans people, which feels really shitty if as a trans person you've done this major surgery to be happier and more yourself, and people just assume you haven't, and won't talk to or engage with you over something you already changed, through a very intensive and difficult process. Overall though genital preferences are perfectly fine, people just don't like saying "I only like penis" because it sounds weird, so they substitute "I only like cis men" thinking that's a less awkward alternative.

  • I don't think trans people are who they identify as - real shit and the kind of people most are actually mad at when people day "I won't date trans people.

Anyways, I'm sure there are more, but the point I'm trying to make is, saying you won't date trans people is just kinda vague. Many people will assume the worst, which is on them, but it would help to clarify and be clear about what your real preference is, or why you have it. For instance "I want to have bio kids someday, so if we aren't compatible on that level then that is a dealbreaker" or "I'm straight and I'm only interested in Cis or post op trans women" which with a couple extra words clearly portrays that its a genital preference without explicitly saying it.

TLDR: having preferences is perfectly fine but when people judge you it's because it isn't clear why you have that preference, and usually ignores outliers. Clarification, while maybe a bit longer or more complicated, would eliminate the anger in most cases. The people who still get upset are likely to be angry no matter what.

[–] GhostFence@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Thank you for this response. I can totally understand your points. The true transphobes out there have given a bad name for anyone who only dates CIS people.

Rather than pushing to have people explain why they prefer CIS only to show they're not transphobes, I would propose a compromise: these same people should not be questioned about their preferences but they also should not offended by trans people or those who date them. Help make a society where trans people aren't second class citizens. Though some people will say "only dating CIS people makes trans people second class citizens no matter the reason" and I really can't hope to satisfy them. I think we go down a dangerous road if we start demanding why someone doesn't want to date someone else and they haven't given off OTHER bigoted vibes.

I don't think there's a solution that is going to make everyone happy but I'm willing to join the dialog (in good faith) to keep tinkering until we find the best one that respects everyone's freedom of choice.

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[–] lemmefixdat4u@lemmy.world 19 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I understand the danger of revealing trans status. I also understand that it can be even more dangerous to be discovered as trans after a relationship develops with a partner who is violently transphobic. Back in the 80's I was in the Navy. One of the guys on my ship was arrested for attempted murder. The woman he was dating didn't reveal she was trans and he found out when they became intimate. He threw her off a second story balcony after beating her.

My question is why anyone would want to initiate a relationship with another person unless their prospective partner was accepting of them? I'd at least bring up the subject in an indirect manner to judge their response.

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[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 17 points 9 months ago

Fuck I'm trans and I agree with you

[–] bisby@lemmy.world 16 points 9 months ago (4 children)

I think the trickiest part is that trans people generally have spent a lot more time thinking about their sexuality and identity than most cis people. Most cis people (or at least cishet) have put basically 0 thought into it. They cant articulate better than "straight", and if you probe further they would just say "I like men/women". They cant fully identifyor explain what it is about the opposite sex specifically they are attracted to because they often havent had to think about it ever. And if genitals are a factor in that attraction, then it may be pretty important. Some people may be able to see past that. Some may not. But we shouldn't force someone to date somebody they arent attracted to, even if they cant eloquently fully explain why they arent attracted.

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[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 16 points 9 months ago

I’d like to congratulate OP for handling a difficult subject in a way that’s both straightforward and thoughtful!

[–] Socsa@sh.itjust.works 16 points 9 months ago (2 children)

You don't date trans women because you are a bigot.

I don't date trans women because I have a menstruation fetish. We are not the same.

Disclaimer: this is a joke. I have been in a relationship with a trans woman.

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