this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2024
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Lemmy.World Announcements

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MODERATORS
 

Hey all,

In light of recent events concerning one of our communities (/c/vegan), we (as a team) have spent the last week working on how to address better some concerns that had arisen between the moderators of that community and the site admin team. We always strive to find a balance between the free expression of communities hosted here and protecting users from potentially harmful content.

We as a team try to stick to a general rule of respect and consideration for the physical and mental well-being of our users when drafting new rules and revising existing ones. Furthermore, we've done our best to try to codify these core beliefs into the additions to the ToS and a new by-laws section.

ToS Additions

That being said, we will be adding a new section to our “terms of service” concerning misinformation. While we do try to be as exact as reasonably able, we also understand that rules can be up to interpretation as well. This is a living document, and users are free to respectfully disagree. We as site admins will do our best to consider the recommendations of all users regarding potentially revising any rules.

Regarding misinformation, we've tried our best to capture these main ideas, which we believe are very reasonable:

  • Users are encouraged to post information they believe is true and helpful.
  • We recommend users conduct thorough research using reputable scientific sources.
  • When in doubt, a policy of “Do No Harm”, based on the Hippocratic Oath, is a good compass on what is okay to post.
  • Health-related information should ideally be from peer-reviewed, reproducible scientific studies.
    • Single studies may be valid, but often provide inadequate sample sizes for health-related advice.
    • Non-peer-reviewed studies by individuals are not considered safe for health matters.

We reserve the right to remove information that could cause imminent physical harm to any living being. This includes topics like conversion therapy, unhealthy diets, and dangerous medical procedures. Information that could result in imminent physical harm to property or other living beings may also be removed.

We know some folks who are free speech absolutists may disagree with this stance, but we need to look out for both the individuals who use this site and for the site itself.

By-laws Addition

We've also added a new by-laws section as well as a result of this incident. This new section is to better codify the course of action that should be taken by site and community moderators when resolving conflict on the site, and also how to deal with dormant communities.

This new section provides also provides a course of action for resolving conflict with site admin staff, should it arise. We want both the users and moderators here to feel like they have a voice that is heard, and essentially a contact point that they can feel safe going to, to “talk to the manager” type situation, more or less a new Lemmy.World HR department that we've created as a result of what has happened over the last week.

Please feel free to raise any questions in this thread. We encourage everyone to please take the time to read over these new additions detailing YOUR rights and how we hope to better protect everyone here.

https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#80-misinformation

https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/

Sincerely,

FHF / LemmyWorld Operations Team


EDIT:

We will be releasing a separate post regarding the moderation incident in the next 24-48 hours, just getting final approval from the team.

EDIT 2 (2024-08-31):

We've posted a response, sorry for the delay.

👉 https://lemmy.world/post/19264848 👈

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[–] MrPoopyButthole@lemmy.world 222 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

Oh man this ones got some flavour to sink ones teeth into 😅

I take the side of the admin. If someone can't accept or understand that a cat eats a meat based diet then they deserve to have reality thrown in their face. Better than some poor animals being tortured.

[–] obinice@lemmy.world 113 points 3 weeks ago (10 children)

If someone can't accept or understand that a cat eats a meat based diet then they deserve to have reality thrown in their face. Better than some poor animals being tortured.

Dang, is that what happened? It's sad to think that there are people mistreating animals that they care about accidentally, through trying to apply their own human morals and rules to them.

Cats are hunters, they eat meat. If that's an issue for your home then fair enough, your house your rules. Just don't get a cat, or a carnivorous pet in general. There's lots of cool pets out there that are herbivores :-)

[–] MBM@lemmings.world 65 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

I think it's less applying their morals to the cat and more not wanting to support the meat industry. That said, yeah just don't have a cat. I expect many vegans aren't too big on the concept of pet ownership anyway.

[–] stoly@lemmy.world 80 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Vegan here. Love my cat. My cat eats meat. End of story.

[–] graphene@lemm.ee 45 points 2 weeks ago

Wow, a normal person on the internet. Thank you for existing.

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[–] teft@lemmy.world 27 points 3 weeks ago

Cats aren't just hunters. They're obligate carnivores. That means they literally can't get all the nutrients they need from a plant based diet. They need the vitamin A in meat in the same way that we need vitamin C.

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[–] MapleEngineer@lemmy.world 75 points 3 weeks ago (70 children)

I had no idea what this one was about. I got banned a few months ago for insisting in c/vegan that animals that eat a predominantly carnivorous diet should not be fed a vegan diet. I'm a cat lover and dog liker and believe that it is animal abuse. I'm glad to see this change.

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[–] esc27@lemmy.world 59 points 3 weeks ago (16 children)

I'm honestly not sure if a vegan cat diet is possible or not, but random people giving unqualified advice that could easily lead a less knowledgeable person to harm an animal is a problem. What should have been done in this case is for a mod or admin to shut the discussion down with a note telling people to consult a qualified veterinarian regarding any change to their pets diet.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 14 points 3 weeks ago

I blocked all those vegan subs when this shit happened, they were already pretty bad tho.

Like if someone posted:

I'm not vegan but am looking to eat less meat

They were banned, so I figured out I was better off blocking than stumbling in one day.

But the original was just talking about feeding cats human vegan food. Then after admins stepped in, some mod went and found a single research article that said it could be possible with supplements...

But I think the supplements came from animals anyways?

So they advocated for something that would harm pets, then found the absolute bare minimum "proof" that in a very narrow situation no one was doing it might not harm the animal "significantly".

It legit seems like they're just trolling and trying to make vegans seem insufferable

[–] stoly@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago

It’s not. Cats have a super high protein requirement. So much that dogs and humans can die from kidney failure if they eat only cat food.

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[–] Carighan@lemmy.world 57 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah, fully agreed.

And beyond the specific situation - as disgusting as it is to let a dependent animal suffer because of a belief it doesn't even hold - it also shows a very basic lack of self-reflection ability if, even faced with backlash, one cannot realize why others would be appalled by such opinions.

[–] NegativeInf@lemmy.world 25 points 3 weeks ago (40 children)

The idea of Obligate Carnivore is fully lost on some. And that's quite a sad reality.

[–] solrize@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

The idea of Obligate Carnivore is fully lost on some. And that’s quite a sad reality.

It seems to me that a lot of people are using that term without knowing what it means. That, too, is a sad reality. It means that cats in the wild aren't able to live off non-meat sources that they can find there, similar to how humans can't live in subfreezing temperatures without shelter or clothing. It says nothing about whether their dietary needs can be fulfilled without meat in a domestic environment. Maybe yes, maybe no, but you can't just parrot the words "obligate carnivore" like a Fox News anchor and act like that gives you the answer. The world is more complicated than that.

In fact, based on other info, cats do seem to be able to survive on human-supplied vegan diets, but it's less clear that they can enjoy optimal health on such a diet. So the reality seems to be somewhat shaded.

Even for humans, being a well-nourished vegan is somewhat difficult (you have to pay attention to stuff like protein combination). It's even harder to be a so-called "raw vegan" (living entirely from uncooked vegetables such as in salads) but apparently it can still be done. Most human vegans consume a lot of beans and grains that are inedible without cooking.

You can imagine an animal species for which cooked beans and grains would be a completely healthy diet, and yet that diet is never seen in the wild because wild animals don't cook. Thus they would get their protein instead from animal sources, i.e. be obligate carnivores, even though they would be fine on steamed rice and tofu. There is no logical incompatibility between "obligate carnivore" and "vegan diet". It's a question of biology that is species specific. In the limit, you could inagine a Star Trek replicator synthesizing perfect mouse meat from pure carbon and other elements, giving you a completely healthy and satisfied vegan cat that thinks it is eating freshly killed mice.

It doesn't appear possible for humans to stay healthy for long periods as fruitarians (some people don't want to cut or kill living plants for food, but instead live off of fruits and nuts that have naturally fallen off the plants). But that can only be known through experimental observation, not linguistic knee jerks. You have to examine the details to understand the real situation for any particular species, food type, and preparation method

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