this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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It does: It dissuades the aggressor.
Germanic tribes, and this continues over to Ukraine culturally (because Rus), had the battle cry "better dead than slave". A village would fight down to the last woman, elderly, and child. Because even if the aggressor overcame them they'd be left with nothing but their own losses. Thus, they wouldn't even try.
If Russia is allowed to get away with this, Taiwan will be next. A gazillion of small-scale empires in unstable regions all around the world will say "well, seeing that noone cares our time to get away with it".
Millions if not billions of people more will be dead.
Holy shit mate, stop watching Marvel movies and get some perspective; this isn't the first time one nation has invaded another. The world didn't end when America invaded Iraq.
The Iraq war was wrong for a multitude of reasons, and many countries (including mine) wanted to do nothing to do with it, but one thing sets it apart very clearly from the current situation:
Iraq wasn't a war of conquest. Russia's war against Ukraine is. The US hasn't waged a war of conquest IIRC since Hawaii, it's always been foreign meddling instead but never out-right imposition of rule and they've gotten less and less bad at how they're doing it over time. I mean compare the Iraqi or Afghani government during occupation with the likes of Batista.
Then, and this (as well as that Marvel reference I couldn't give less of a fuck) makes me think you're American: It's the first war by a major power in Europe since WWII. We thought we had that shit behind us, that Yugoslavia was a regrettable exceptions caused by small-minded autocrats exploiting ethnic tensions for their own benefit. But, nope, actual full-scale war has come back to Europe because unlike the rest of Europe Russia hasn't gotten the memo that imperialism is soooo 18hundreds. As a yank you wouldn't understand.
A war of avoiding national embarrassment and getting re-elected. The equivalent of starting a bar fight because someone picked up the gal you eyed through your whisky glass for two hours.
Okay, so what you're saying is that our genocidal war in Iraq that killed a million people, displaced 30 million more, poisoned their soil and DNA with depleted uranium and created ISIS...You're saying all of that was done for even stupider reasons than the ones you think are driving the Russian Federation now.
Is that supposed to make the US look better, and not monstrous?
Or, more relevant question, why on Earth should the country that lied to start that war be trusted about anything, ever again?
Nobody has been able to give me a compelling answer that doesn't just boil down to "because other countries must be worse, have to be worse, for my worldview to make sense." And I get it, I've been there. I was a bit of an American chauvinist for a while. But the more familiar I became with history, especially in the 20th century, the more it became clear to me that America has no equivalent in the scale of it's evil.
Btw just curious, (and not the smug condescending internet kind of "curious", the real deal): Have you ever checked out Blowback? If you're a podcast person it's fantastic, season one is about the Iraq war and it really goes into depth on the history and context behind the war. Some of the reasons you mentioned, some others. Highly recommend.
I don't know the British Empire has to be pretty close lol
No. Yanks are idiots I said it before and I'm certainly willing to repeat it. The age of enlightenment by and large never reached them.
Nope and honestly I'm not particularly interested because I was already arguing with idiots back then that they're making a heap of mistakes, I'm sure there's details in there that I don't know but I'm well-versed in the overall gist of it all from back then.
If you're up for crying and laughing at the same time though I have something for you. The history of the USA ones, the subtitles are quite good.
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Please, for god's sake log off before you strain something.
This is actually disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. The Americans murdered a million Iraqis, and in the last few years at least 400,000 Yemenis, plus god knows who else and in what numbers.
Ah yes, the US murdering millions of people in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Afghanistan, Iraq and so on was just "foreign meddling".
You are fucking disgusting.
Are you a child, an american, or did you only start paying attention to history in February 2022?
The troubles were not an inter-state conflict.
Cyprus is a vastly complicated situation as Turkish Cypriots were in favour of British rule and Greek Cypriots wanted unification with Greece while it was a dictatorship.
I mentioned Yugoslavia. Do you read comments before replying.
Georgia is basically the same shit as Ukraine just in a bit less worse. While we're at it we can also mention Transnistria: Again, Russia. As said, it's Russia which didn't get the memo.
Only because the Irish didn't manage to win.
Now this definitely was an inter-state conflict, because Cyprus managed to break free from the British empire. And if we excluded complicated situation then we would have to exclude all wars, including the Ukraine war.
You mentioned it and then said it didn't count because of reasons. I'm saying it does count because it was a war and it was in Europe. Although under your criteria this should also be excluded because it wasn't an inter-state conflict. One of the ways that NATO justified its bombing was by saying it wasn't a state but a supranational organization and thus wasn't beholden to the UN charter.
It was another situation where a western-backed revanchist government attacks a separatist area and then Russia moves in to stop the shelling.
Hmm
Hmm. It's weird how in Moldova, Georgia, and Ukraine a western-backed revanchist government started attacking civilians in a separatist region all of a sudden. And how all three countries had "market liberalizations" against the will of their people. I guess it's just one of those coincidences that seem to happen whenever the US has an interest in a place.
I'm sorry but this is definitely shit you only say when you're very far from the action. Would you want your grandpa drafted and sent into a minefield to "dissuade the aggressor"? Grandma and the children too apparently, better dead than governed by another neighboring authoritarian shithole?
I think I'd rather just flee with my family to a country right next door that has a nuclear deterrent and NATO membership. Literally why would "they need to all fight to the death instead" be your first thought? I can't imagine it coming from a position where you think Ukrainians are as human as you are.
People back then couldn't flee like that. You're taking it all well too literally.
And yes I have Ukrainian refugee neighbours. Soldiers knowing their families are safe with friends isn't exactly bad for morale, either.
lol no you don't, you've been lying through this entire thread, I bet even if you had them you wouldn't know about it because when I asked you to go outside and talk to people you ignored it, literally stop being a NEET go outside and talk to people
How, pray tell, would I know my neighbours are Ukrainian when I never talk to people?
Checkmate, projectionist.
You are a german NEET go outside, maybe when you spend some time among real life people you can get your priorities straight like instead of arguing with the scary putin-bot tankies online you can figure some way to organize so that the AfD, that's the fascist party in case you forgot, doesn't poll in second place. Unless you yourself aren't a NEET but a fascist and want the AfD to 'Take back Germany' in which case fuck off.
AfD polls 8% in my state, greens are 2nd largest party, good try.
Checkmate liberal
So when are you going to Ukraine to sign up for the frontline?
You're definitely gonna do that right?
I'll have to inform you that I'm a conscious objector (spent my time in catastrophe relief) and by now too old.
But yes there's plenty of German reservists in Ukraine. Also what does that have to do with anything I said, I was glossing Ukrainian sentiment. Did you merely wanted to be right on the internet (in your own mind).
How is this an excuse? The Germanic tribes of Ukraine used to fight down to the last elderly person I hear.
Dude I'm two countries away. If Russia gets through Poland and half of Germany, sure, I'll be in the trenches. Probably wouldn't do much good but if I can't be of more use somewhere else, that's where I'll be.
Well that's better! Someone so interested in tales of Germanic valor should be ready for another Volkssturm. What I don't get is why you wouldn't sacrifice yourself in Ukraine, what with the blood relation and all. Maybe Ukrainians aren't quite as Germanic in your mind after all?
Are you Völkisch or something? I'm getting distinct Nazi vibes from your line of thinking.
But I do have a song for you.
I'm mocking you. You're the one that drew a line from Germanic tribes and their heroic culture to modern-day Ukraine. These are some pretty völkische theories you got there.
Native Americans might speak about the War Path. You see it in a ton of indigenous tribes, more "civilised" populations, if they exhibit it, often don't have a name for it, especially when at peace. It's a not too uncommon expression of basic human instincts regarding defence of your loved ones. To get away from Germanic tribes but stay in Europe: Finns for the longest time didn't really have it in this way and were ruled by more or less benevolent Swedes, then Russia came along and, by treating them way worse, unearthed that stuff which is why you get "when the snow starts speaking Finnish" memes, they're absolutely capable of mobilising the complete country for their own defence, support for universal conscription is near universal, such things. For the closely related Estonians it took Soviet occupation to develop that fierceness.