this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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Ukraine has lost. They are not getting their separatist regions back.
Their choices are to keep fighting, which will not change this outcome, or negotiate an end to the war so they can stop dying and start rebuilding. Their negotiating position will only weaken as the war continues absent some one-in-a-million stroke of luck.
This isn't "I kick you and you don't defend yourself." It's "I kick you, you defend yourself, lose, and choose to either walk away or keep getting beaten up." And that's not even digging into the actual causes of the war, which are nowhere near as clear cut as Russia one day waking up and deciding to attack out of the blue.
[citation needed].
In any case Ukrainians disagree with you and keep on fighting. Heck even if Russia occupied all of Ukraine they'd keep on fighting. It's not in your hands whether they fight or not, and their motive is just, so why not help them? Because you're a defeatist? Come on.
Yeah, that's why they've been kidnapping people to the front lines, because the Ukranian people want to fight so much. That's why they conscripted prison inmates and forbid any man undder 60 from leaving when the war broke out, right. Because of all that popular will to fight.
There's been plenty of court cases and firings over improperly handled conscriptions. Prison inmates IIRC weren't conscripted but given a choice. Plenty of Ukrainians -- also men -- returned from other European countries to fight, left countries where they had a free welfare ride and working permits. Plenty of women fight in the army. It surely must be terrible over there /s.
Meanwhile Russia is force-conscripting pretty much any man they can get their hands on and sending them, without equipment, into meat grinders. Have a look at Storm Z units.
Technically they fired every conscription officer in the country for bribery so I'm not sure that really supports your case.
"They want to keep doing something you think is futile and causing senseless deaths, so why not help them?"
You know what would be even more senseless than dying in a trench? Dying in an FSB torture cellar while your family gets raped.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
Stuff you don't want to hear so didn't hear, apparently: Russian torture cellars. Other things you might not want to hear include Russians castrating POWs.
I said the war is lost and Ukraine should negotiate. You said:
I pointed out how ridiculous it is to say "why not help them" is to someone who just said they believed the war was lost. Rather than continue this conversation, you went off on a tangent. Brilliant.
It's not a tangent. Even if Ukraine lost (and it didn't, and you made no actual argument on why I should believe so) with the kind of atrocities Russia is committing in occupied territories tons of people would, and, well, do, fight against the occupiers.
Would anything convince you?
And yes, bringing up allegations of war crimes is a total non sequitur in a discussion about whether the war itself is winnable for Ukraine. No war crime is excusable, but every side of every war commits them.
Yes. It would involve military analysis.
That's not even close to a military analysis. What about artillery attrition? Logistics in the rear? What's the average time between Russians setting up an ammo depot and it getting blown to bits? Conscription getting riskier and riskier for Putin?
How many reserves have the sides committed to the front? Hint: Russia committed everything quite some time ago while Ukraine didn't and is rotating troops so they can get some well-deserved R&R.
Putin does, certainly when it comes to regime stability. Russia? I very much doubt it because there's also sane Russian. Europe will continue support indefinitely don't confuse us for fickle yanks and you're severely underestimating the morale boost incurred by fighting a defensive war. For Ukraine, this indeed is an existential war. Read Clausewitz.
No. Much of Russia's production and stocks are in the east. Also that's like such a non-issue.
...at a state where Russia, Russia, is importing metals from China. Metals. Russia. Do I need to need to use more italics. I don't have any insight on the details but it's well-known that Russia is lacking workers because tons are either a) dead, b) on the front, or c) in hiding to not end up a) or b), and that seems to be so bad that it affects mining and refining.
Now China might be happy propping Russia up, but internally the Z-patriots are going to scream bloody murder incurring debts with China. Long story short: Russia's internal situation is becoming more and more volatile.
Do you think you know the answer to any of these questions? I don't see any sources. The bottom line is that Russia has shown the ability to hold its territory for quite some time.
Lol let's see if Europe's support will last another winter of higher energy prices. The U.S. is the big spender, anyway.
This paragraph is so mind-meltingly stupid I hardly know where to start.
You'd know about it if you actually followed the war in military terms.
Are you European?
So you're saying that it's cheaper for Russia to import from China than keeping production inside? How is that supposed to work?
That was in a day and age where people still had children, and it's no wonder it exploded it was pretty much at zero during Tsar times.
Have Russian press reporting about the military shortfall, and that's before the war started, not counting the sky-high incurred losses. Sure, Russians per se still exist but they're increasingly I nearly said grandmas but the better term would be grandma age.
No sources on all those questions, then.
Jesus Christ... Russia is a big country. Mines and mills are expensive and undesirable to live by so they don't build them everywhere unless it's necessary. Ore deposits are not spread evenly throughout countries, nor are mills. Unfinished products are not very economical to ship long distances. So Russia could have all the (for example) steel production capacity in the world, but if its capacity is mostly in Western Russia and you have a factory in Eastern Russia right across the border from a Chinese steel mill, it's probably cheaper to import than buy domestically.
People have kids today you doofus, and not only running production capacity but building it all while fighting a war is an even greater indication of their labor availability than if they had started with a strong industrial base.
Points at the utter failure of the joke of a counteroffensive to even breach Russia's first line of defense after months of hype about retaking Crimea
You mean the ones forced to fight because they were kidnapped off the street and will be shot if they try to leave? Or the fascists that are in charge?
Part of the reason why Russia does not want to occupy all of Ukraine.
Nor yours, but it is in the hands of NATO leadership who have stymied peace negotiations at every opportunity.
[citation needed]
Why would we want to help people get forced into a meat grinder?
How slava ukraini you still feeling after 8 months of being wrong and Ukraine eating shit?
lol, reread what you're responding to, comrade. Friendly fire.
How’s reclaiming those territories going?
Oh you are disgusting
Disgusting is cheerleading who knows how many more deaths that if anything will only weaken Ukraine's bargaining position.
Please just drown in your own vomit.
Federatin is great I really forgot all the deep, nuanced, informative conversations I used to have on Reddit. I am learning so much here!
I don't know, we really have to look at defederating from some of these hostile communities. That rude user just told me to kill myself, whereas my polite Hexbear comrades would only send me an emoji of pig shit if we had a serious disagreemt.