These kinda of things are why the US supports Israel. It helps destabilize the neighbors that don't fall in line with US interests. The US fears a sovereign Middle East where they get to choose what to do with their own countries and resources, not just for the usual Imperialist reasons, but because of the importance of the petrodollar system.

[–] anachronist@midwest.social 12 points 1 month ago (5 children)

That's too 5-d chess for "the US" to pull off. I find it more plausible that the US supports Israel because Israel has a lot of powerful supporters in the US who manipulate public opinion and government policy.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 27 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It's not 5-d chess, it's simple politics of weakening potential rivals. If you look at history literally the same thing was done even by ancient hegemonies, it has even popular Latin name - "Divide et impera". USA is global hegemon and acts globally.

[–] theangryseal@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

I grew up in the evangelical movement. I heard over and over and over again (some variation of this) when I was a kid, “The nation that refuses to aid Israel will fall! All of those who turn their backs on the Jews will burn when god returns.”

Those people are deadly serious too. It wouldn’t matter what Israel does.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 month ago

That's too 5-d chess for "the US" to pull off.

It is not a complicated strategy. It just requires a large group that cares about the petrodollar. The US has a ton of those people in high places in government and finance.

The US invented the petrodollar.

I find it more plausible that the US supports Israel because Israel has a lot of powerful supporters in the US who manipulate public opinion and government policy.

Israel has powerful supporters in the US because it is in the interests of capital to support Israel. The higher interests of capital do understand why the Middle East must be destabilized for their own gain. They are fully aware of and influence, for example, the invasion to control Iraq's oil fields and depose the government of Iraq that was acting too sovereign about it. Same for the Syrian oil fields seized and controlled by the US to this day. This is also why the US promotes the Saudis as an ally - they stabilize the petrodollar system. It is no coincidence that they also target an independent Yemem.

Powerful supporters are just the middlemen for capital, as are major media campaigns. It is not explanatory to say that powerful people support a country or policy. Of course they must do so, that is how every policy decision happens: the powerful people fall in line with the decisions of capital, decisions that may have been made decades ago but are now entrenched. Capital also leverages its close collaboration with the highest levels of the state. The White House is constantly consulting finance, economic advisors from finance, think tanks built to advance the interests of finance, etc (finance is the dominsnt wing of caoital in the US). And in the other direction, capital is constantly making threats and PR pushes.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 month ago

It self-consciously is the reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYLNCcLfIkM

Israel only has lobbying groups that are allowed to operate in American politics because the US was already dedicated to zionism. Otherwise there'd be, like, a Chinese AIPAC lobbying for the PRC or something.

[–] Kuori@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

that's just antisemitic "the jews are secretly in control" shit by another name

[–] anachronist@midwest.social 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

As demonstrated by @theangryseal@lemmy.world the zionists in America are not all Jewish. In fact, there are likely many more evangelical zionists in the USA than Jewish zionists. Also, most of the jews I know (especially younger ones) are anti-zionist.

But cheers on the Israel=Judaism hasbara

[–] Kuori@hexbear.net 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

yes i am aware of all of this. none of that in any way interacts with my point, which is that "actually israel is secretly pulling the strings of the U.S. via shadowy manipulation" fucking reeks and it has the distinction of not being true

[–] anachronist@midwest.social 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

via shadowy manipulation [...] and it has the distinction of not being true

Yeah I agree with this part. Because the manipulation is obvious and in your face and absolutely not "shadowy".

AIPAC has made it clear repeatedly that they will carpet bomb any candidate no matter how minor with money if they support BDS or are even BDS-adjacent. Nina Turner, Cori Bush, and Jamaal Bowman have all had their political careers cut short for being even slightly critical of Israel.

If there was an organization like AIPAC for, say, Russia, an ARPAC, it would be illegal and its officers would be hauled off to prison because foreign influence in American elections is illegal. Yet even though it says right in the name that AIPAC is a foreign influence organization, they are allowed to not only operate but yield enormous power.

On the other side of the isle, Thomas Massie has said that every single member of the US congress has an "AIPAC Minder" who watches over them at all times and he's even heard in meetings of Republican members statements like "I need to clear that with my AIPAC guy."

It is illegal to boycott a foreign country in 37 US states. The state governments of a majority of American states actually passed a law saying "this foreign country in particular, if an American citizen boycotts or advocates for boycotting it, they can be prosecuted." Can you guess which country that is? (hint: it's not Canada)

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

Underrated analysis