this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
115 points (88.1% liked)

Ask Lemmy

26916 readers
1730 users here now

A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions

Please don't post about US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world


Rules: (interactive)


1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them


2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?


3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.


4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com. NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].


5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.


Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.

Partnered Communities:

Tech Support

No Stupid Questions

You Should Know

Reddit

Jokes

Ask Ouija


Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

I know a lot of languages have some aspects that probably seem a bit strange to non-native speakers…in the case of gendered words is there a point other than “just the way its always been” that explains it a bit better?

I don’t have gendered words in my native language, and from the outside looking in I’m not sure what gendered words actually provide in terms of context? Is there more to it that I’m not quite following?

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] jpeps@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Really great comment, thank you for the effort you put into this. That said, I can't say I feel convinced by the reasoning. Are you suggesting that gender in these languages was an intentional decision to solve the problems you raise? Because as other comments point out, it seems it's still very possible to have an ambiguous sentence making this seem like an overly confusing addition.

Secondly in your example of gendered language assisting in derivation, surely this ends up with the same problems given that the language only represents a limited number of genders? I do not remotely know Portuguese, but how does this derivation quality help with the word for an apple seed? I presume the same logic can't apply?

Thanks for your time!

[–] lvxferre@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

you suggesting that gender in these languages was an intentional decision to solve the problems you raise?

No, I'm not suggesting intention or decision. Most of the time, language works a lot like a biological species: there's no critter or speaker deciding "we shall have this feature!", but instead the feature spreads or goes extinct depending on the role that it performs in the language, alongside other features.

My explanation is all about that role. That is the point of grammatical gender, and it explains:

  • why it appeared independently across different languages? Clearly the gender systems in Dyirbal, in most Indo-European languages, in [most?] Afro-Asiatic languages are unrelated to each other, but why did they develop that same feature?
  • why it survives for so long in a language? For example, the gender system in Russian, Hindi and Spanish backtracks all the way back into Late Proto-Indo-European (6000? years ago).

A pointless feature wouldn't do it.

I do not remotely know Portuguese, but how does this derivation quality help with the word for an apple seed?

The fruit vs. plant example is from Italian, not Portuguese (see note*).

It doesn't need to help with the word for an apple seed (IT: seme di mela, lit. "seed of apple"). It's just an extension, a "bonus" of the system; the core is like bambino/bambina, words referring to human beings, we humans tend to speak a lot about each other.

That said, your question reminds me the noun classes of Bantu languages. Gender is just a specific type of noun class; it's possible that some language out there would actually use a noun class derivation of their word for apple to refer to apple seeds.

*note, on Portuguese

Fruit trees in Portuguese get an "origin" suffix, -eira; see e.g. maçã (apple) vs. macieira (apple tree) vs. semente de maçã (apple seed). There are a few nouns where the feminine is a specific type of the masculine, like

  • ovo (egg) vs. ova (fish eggs)
  • casco (shell) vs. casca (bark, peel)
  • jarro (jar) vs. jarra (a type of jar, usually with a pointy lip)
  • barco (boat) vs. barca (barque)

but that feature was only rarely used, and it is certainly not productive; I think that it backtracks to Latin neuter but I'm not sure. Anyway, derivation in the modern language is mostly restricted to critters and people.

[–] xigoi@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 1 year ago

Languages involved naturally. Nothing is an intentional decision.

Yes, it's still possible to have ambiguity, just like you can have hash collisions in hash tables. But it at least sometimes helps.