this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2023
1405 points (95.2% liked)
Memes
45898 readers
1374 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Groups of people and organisations that submit to the power of a government that sets the rules for that group of people.
Change the rules, change the behaviour for the large group of individuals and the companies doing the lions share of the damage.
Change your behaviour, change the behaviour of one individual.
Sure. Change your own scope that you control, and simultaneously work to change the system. But there is more than one system. Not just government systems. But also mental/social systems, for instance the meme that individual actions don't amount to much. Imagine if everyone started believing their individual actions mattered.
Agreed with the caveat that compared to corporate contributions, individual contribution (within reason) is near irrelevant.
You're basically saying that human culture doesn't exist. We can foster a culture around sustainability, just like we have previously fostered a culture around greed and excess. Apathy and trying to minimize nudges towards sustainability only support the status quo.
I'm what now?
Go for it - foster a culture of sustainability. That's not a bad thing, it's just inadequate.
Do you think that'll deliver the change we need, dramatically shifting the behaviour of corporations and billions of people before we're out of time, or do you think that pushing those that set the rules of our society to force/motivate the corporations might do a more effective job?
You're talking about fundamentally breaking capitalism, which I'm all for, but to imagine that those holding the wealth, and by extension, the power will be influenced to abandon the profit motive by some flowery language rather than pushing back against you to the greatest extent possible is magical thinking. You need the greater power of the government to force that change on them.
Seems like we're stuck in a loop here then. I think you need an engaged populace first to build momentum around political and societal solutions. Which society do you think will force the government to actually solve the problem - a bunch of soft apathetic people blaming everyone else, or a society that at its core actually values sustainability and lives it on a personal level? Pretty sure you know the answer.
I actually think we broadly agree - my point is that the answer isn't to just recycle harder at the individual level, or even to get members of your community to do the same (though it's certainly a good thing to do) - the real change comes from the push for systemic change that'll affect both the populace broadly, and corporations. Yes - the most effective way to do that is to build a community of people that are all pushing in the same direction - lobbying for policy/party changes in government, pushing companies to be better, etc.
Again, my views are a product of looking where the biggest contributions to the problem come from, and the changes where we can move the needle the most. A bunch of individuals changing is good, a bunch of individuals changing the government to change the whole state/country/corporate regulations is far better.
Anything but individual action is magic and flowery language. A system, a group, a corporation, an institution is made of individuals. How does ANY action start if not initiated by individuals? I will concede that cleaning up your own behavior may not move the needle much, but changing "the system" still requires individuals to take actions. What are you waiting for? Some magical hive mind to fix things?
Do you honestly think that wasn't implied in me advocating for government action? If this is what you're clinging to, you're lost.
I'm lost huh? Tell me what you've done to help move the needle.
You've gone from strawmaning me to ad-hom purity testing, asking me to make non-falsifiable statements you could just dismiss as bullshit. Why be so dishonest when the fate of our civilisation is at stake? Why not acknowledge there's a point here and take it on board instead? Make yourself more effective?
Dance with words all you want. I'm personally doing as much as I can to reduce my environmental footprint. You are just blowing hot air.
At what point did I suggest you weren't trying? I'm pointing to the most effective, necessary course of action if things are going to meaningfully change. I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive that you'd be so dishonest.
All I've done is suggest that individual action is important along with systemic change and you've done nothing but get on my case and label me. It's not one or the other. This sort of binary thinking is the stupidity that is driving this world over the edge.
In any case, you claim that systemic change is the way. Please tell me how you are working on that. Let me sit down and strap in...
And I keep saying that individual action is positive, but inadequate, and shouldn't come at the cost of more effective systemic solutions. I really can't make it any simpler, nor can I understand why you're getting bent out of shape at me saying it.
Do you want to insist on deflecting to non-falsifiable ad-homs, or do you want a list of things you can do to encourage systemic change?
You certainly know that individual action does not come at the cost of systemic solutions. Thats just horseshit. You aren't discussing in good faith.
I've been doing my best to avoid accusations and ad hominem, but since you don't really have interest in an honest discussion, I'll be blunt: you are transparent, and obviously just too lazy and undisciplined to do anything personal about the situation, and want daddy authority figure and some tech god to fix everyone for you so you can go bury your head back in video games and burgers. Have a nice day.
It individual action certainly doesn't come at the cost of systemic solutions, but it absolutely can if you expend your avaliable time and energy on it. This is why I said "so long as it doesn't come at the expense of systemic solutions". We'll add that to the growing tally of your dishonesty in the face of a threat to the species as I await any example of mine that holds up even momentarily.
We've also repeatedly established that you can, and given your dishonesty, almost certainly will dismiss anything I assert I've done is bullshit - absent evidence from either side, this is pointless. I've offered examples nonetheless. I also never implied or advocated for tech solutions - just legislative, policy, and social solutions... There's that dishonesty yet again.
Consider why you insist on living in a fantasy bubble of your own bullshit and how relevant the solutions formed in fantasy land will be in the real world.
I've already listed several things I've done in this thread. You haven't mentioned a single thing because you spend your time in the dark on your phone eating chips and arguing with people. You aren't contributing anything, either through individual action or by changing the system.
I bet it's nice there in fantasy land - you seem real insistent on staying at the cost your integrity.