this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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menby

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A space for masculine folks to talk about living under patriarchy.

Detoxing masculinity since 1990!

You don’t get points for feminism, feminism is expected.

Guidelines:

  1. Questions over blame
  2. Humility over pride
  3. Wisdom over dogma
  4. Actions over image

Rules (expansions on the guidelines):

  1. Mistakes should be learning experiences when possible.
    • Do not attack comrades displaying vulnerability for what they acknowledge are mistakes.
    • If you see good-faith behavior that's toxic, do your best to explain why it's toxic.
    • If you don't have the energy to engage, report and move on.
    • This includes past mistakes. If you've overcome extreme reactionary behavior, we'd love to know how.
    • A widened range of acceptable discussion means a greater need for sensitivity and patience for your comrades.
    • Examples:
      • "This is reactionary. Here's why."
      • "I know that {reality}, but I feel like {toxicity}"
      • "I don't understand why this is reactionary, but it feels like it {spoilered details}"
  2. You are not entitled to the emotional labor of others.
    • Constantly info-dumping and letting us sort through your psyche is not healthy for any of us.
    • If you feel a criticism of you is unfair, do not lash out.
    • If you can't engage self-critically, delete your post.
    • If you don't know how to phrase why it's unfair, say so.
  3. No singular masculine ideal.
    • This includes promoting gender-neutral traits like "courage" or "integrity" as "manly".
    • Suggestions for an individual to replace a toxic ideal is fine.
    • Don't reinforce the idea the fulfillment requires masculinity.
    • This also includes tendency struggle-sessions.
  4. No lifestyle content.
    • Post the picture of your new grill in !food (feminine people like grills too smh my head).
    • Post the picture of the fish you caught in !sports (feminine people like fish too smdh my damn head).
    • At best, stuff like this is off-topic. At worst, it's reinforcing genders norms..
    • If you're not trying to be seen as masculine for your lifestyle content, it's irrelevant to this comm. If you are trying to be seen as masculine, let's have a discussion about why these things are seen as masculine.

Resources:

*The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by Bell Hooks

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

(CW: chapters 4 and 5 contain explicit discussions of sexual assault)

Hello comrades, it's time for our third discussion thread for The Will to Change, covering Chapters 4 (Stopping Male Violence) and 5 (Male Sexual Being). Thanks to everyone who participated the last few weeks, I’m looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts again. And if you’re just joining the book club this week, welcome!

I'll be sharing my full thoughts later as there's quite a lot of unpack in these chapters.

In Ch.4 hooks delves into how patriarchal repression of men's emotional worlds most often manifests as violence and rage, especially against women and children, and how patriarchy conditions both young boys and young girls to perpetuate the cycle. Ch.5 explores how patriarchal attitudes extend to the bedroom and twist our popular conceptions of sexuality, sexual fulfillment, and physical and emotional satisfaction.

If you haven't read the book yet but would like to, its available free on the Internet Archive in text form, as well as an audiobook on Youtube with content warnings at the start of each chapter, courtesy of the Anarchist Audio Library, and as an audiobook on our very own TankieTube! (note: the YT version is missing the Preface but the Tankietube version has it)

As always let me know if you'd like to be added to the ping list!

Our next discussion will be on Chapters 6 (Work: What's Love Got To Do With It?) and 7 (Feminist Manhood), beginning on 12/18.

edit: the previous post didn't have the proper links to the pdf book and audiobooks, sorry for that

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[–] carpoftruth@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago (5 children)

I am still catching up on reading this, so the following is more related to the first 2 chapters than 4/5.

One of the things I found hard about reflecting on the first chapter was being sympathetic to the manly men in my own life that have been assholes. I was bullied and teased for "being a wimp" in school (in other words, doing effeminate things like reading and being thin), and as an adult a female relative of mine is dealing with a nasty divorce from a real piece of work manly man who's deeply betrayed her. Intellectually I appreciate that a lot of the manly man behaviour that's negatively affected me and the people I love is a direct outgrowth of the patriarchy and patriarchal values as described by hooks. I think hooks is very insightful and does a good job describing the societal pressures on men and how that warps men's mental health, values and behaviour.

That said, while I find her very readable and even accessible for reflecting on my own thoughts and behaviour, I find it hard to read when I am thinking about these other assholes in my current and past life. I was amab, born and raised as a boy, am a cishet man - I came up with all the same social pressures and patriarchy, my parents weren't early feminists or anything, I went to church. And yet I didn't bully other kids in school and didn't manipulate and betray my wife. I think the reason that I'm struggling a bit with internalizing hooks' writing is that I view these acts of abuse, negativity, manipulation as a choice. Societal pressure notwithstanding, no one held a gun to the head of these shit bags and forced them to call me homosexual slurs, they made a choice based on what they thought would make them funny or popular. My relative's ex didn't get forced to be a narcissistic shit head that's walking out on their kids, he chose to gas light her and have an affair.

Perhaps these are my patriarchal, non-marxist brainworms talking, but while I'm willing to read and learn from this book, I am not willing to extend the same level of sympathy as hooks to the patriarchal, misogynist fucks who have wronged me and mine. I think part of what makes it difficult is that hooks is so clearly right - the patriarchy does fuck people up and does warp values. I just struggle with going from that clear and obvious systemic pressure to any form of "it's not their fault". I appreciate the irony that the dominant emotion that I, a man, have on this subject is anger over magnanimity or forgiveness.

[–] Aceivan@hexbear.net 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I might have to reread those two chapters to reply more directly because I distinctly dont remember hooks absolving men of those sorts of actions really. explanation, yes, but certainly not excuse

[–] carpoftruth@hexbear.net 4 points 1 week ago

Oh yeah, this is my baggage, not hers.

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