this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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menby
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A space for masculine folks to talk about living under patriarchy.
Detoxing masculinity since 1990!
You don’t get points for feminism, feminism is expected.
Guidelines:
- Questions over blame
- Humility over pride
- Wisdom over dogma
- Actions over image
Rules (expansions on the guidelines):
- Mistakes should be learning experiences when possible.
- Do not attack comrades displaying vulnerability for what they acknowledge are mistakes.
- If you see good-faith behavior that's toxic, do your best to explain why it's toxic.
- If you don't have the energy to engage, report and move on.
- This includes past mistakes. If you've overcome extreme reactionary behavior, we'd love to know how.
- A widened range of acceptable discussion means a greater need for sensitivity and patience for your comrades.
- Examples:
- "This is reactionary. Here's why."
- "I know that {reality}, but I feel like {toxicity}"
- "I don't understand why this is reactionary, but it feels like it {spoilered details}"
- You are not entitled to the emotional labor of others.
- Constantly info-dumping and letting us sort through your psyche is not healthy for any of us.
- If you feel a criticism of you is unfair, do not lash out.
- If you can't engage self-critically, delete your post.
- If you don't know how to phrase why it's unfair, say so.
- No singular masculine ideal.
- This includes promoting gender-neutral traits like "courage" or "integrity" as "manly".
- Suggestions for an individual to replace a toxic ideal is fine.
- Don't reinforce the idea the fulfillment requires masculinity.
- This also includes tendency struggle-sessions.
- No lifestyle content.
- Post the picture of your new grill in !food (feminine people like grills too smh my head).
- Post the picture of the fish you caught in !sports (feminine people like fish too smdh my damn head).
- At best, stuff like this is off-topic. At worst, it's reinforcing genders norms..
- If you're not trying to be seen as masculine for your lifestyle content, it's irrelevant to this comm. If you are trying to be seen as masculine, let's have a discussion about why these things are seen as masculine.
Resources:
*The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by Bell Hooks
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I am still catching up on reading this, so the following is more related to the first 2 chapters than 4/5.
One of the things I found hard about reflecting on the first chapter was being sympathetic to the manly men in my own life that have been assholes. I was bullied and teased for "being a wimp" in school (in other words, doing effeminate things like reading and being thin), and as an adult a female relative of mine is dealing with a nasty divorce from a real piece of work manly man who's deeply betrayed her. Intellectually I appreciate that a lot of the manly man behaviour that's negatively affected me and the people I love is a direct outgrowth of the patriarchy and patriarchal values as described by hooks. I think hooks is very insightful and does a good job describing the societal pressures on men and how that warps men's mental health, values and behaviour.
That said, while I find her very readable and even accessible for reflecting on my own thoughts and behaviour, I find it hard to read when I am thinking about these other assholes in my current and past life. I was amab, born and raised as a boy, am a cishet man - I came up with all the same social pressures and patriarchy, my parents weren't early feminists or anything, I went to church. And yet I didn't bully other kids in school and didn't manipulate and betray my wife. I think the reason that I'm struggling a bit with internalizing hooks' writing is that I view these acts of abuse, negativity, manipulation as a choice. Societal pressure notwithstanding, no one held a gun to the head of these shit bags and forced them to call me homosexual slurs, they made a choice based on what they thought would make them funny or popular. My relative's ex didn't get forced to be a narcissistic shit head that's walking out on their kids, he chose to gas light her and have an affair.
Perhaps these are my patriarchal, non-marxist brainworms talking, but while I'm willing to read and learn from this book, I am not willing to extend the same level of sympathy as hooks to the patriarchal, misogynist fucks who have wronged me and mine. I think part of what makes it difficult is that hooks is so clearly right - the patriarchy does fuck people up and does warp values. I just struggle with going from that clear and obvious systemic pressure to any form of "it's not their fault". I appreciate the irony that the dominant emotion that I, a man, have on this subject is anger over magnanimity or forgiveness.
I might have to reread those two chapters to reply more directly because I distinctly dont remember hooks absolving men of those sorts of actions really. explanation, yes, but certainly not excuse
Oh yeah, this is my baggage, not hers.