this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2023
132 points (95.8% liked)
Europe
8324 readers
1 users here now
News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe 🇪🇺
(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, 🇩🇪 ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures
Rules
(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)
- Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
- No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
- No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.
Also check out !yurop@lemm.ee
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I'm all for letting people wear whatever they want. What is the harm?
Here in Canada I've seen police officers wearing turbans. Works for me. Nude beaches? Sure thing. I've seen people in my neighborhood wearing Saudi-style niqabs and Afghan-style burqas.
Who am I to tell people what they should or shouldn't wear? How could it be my business?
I'm also for people burning the Qur'an if they so please. Or the bible, or the rainbow flag, or the national flag if that's how they want to protest. Ideas are there to be challenged.
I draw the line at threatening or harming people.
France is a secularist Republic. Freedom of religion is guaranteed but every religious sign is banned in the public space.
I understand that's how things are, but I don't think that is how they should be. And while I'm an atheist, I also understand many people aren't. Why force my irreligiosity on them?
So while students should not be indoctrinated on any particular religion in school, I don't see the harm in letting both teachers and students wear whatever they like, including religious symbols.
In fact, it would be great if we taught all students the basics of multiple world religions in school and let people of different faiths talk to each other about what is important to them.
I really like this stance. Understanding other people is absolutely important. You don't have to agree with them, but you do have to understand them and see them as people.
Precisely! We have more in common than not. And I sincerely believe that we become more tolerant by talking and trying to understand each other, even if we find areas where we disagree.
Remaining in our own little information bubble is what radicalizes people.
I can see where you are coming from. How can we forbid clothing if the goal is to not dictate what to wear?
But consider that in a community, be that at school or in the neighborhood, classmates and neighbors can uphold unregulated, religious rules. Is it free choice of clothing if the law doesn't forbid anything, but only girls with (insert appropriate clothing) are allowed to join in the play? And there is plenty precedent of religion that causes precisely such group behavior.
There is plenty of precedent of non-religious informal rules around clothing. E.g. men wearing skirts, dresses, or soft "feminine" colors. Do those informal rules bother you as well? Should we change the law accordingly, or are we okay with informal norms of conduct in that case?
Well if that really were the fears of people proposing such bans, then there would be a lot of better ways to achieve this. At the very least they would try to support such bans with flanking policies such as better infrastructure to support such women who are oppressed in a religious ways as for example better integration courses and public information.
And for some reason it's always only about Muslim women! Other religions which can also coerce or force family members to follow a certain dress code, not a single word about them.
Because right now and in Europe those are rather rare. Afaik there's some Christian groups where women always wear long skirts, but those groups tend to get called "cults" ("Sekten" here in Germany) so I don't really see a double standard there.
That said, there are surveys regarding why women wear hijabs and - at least in Germany - those say that the vast majority wears them voluntarily.
Don't take that guy just at his word. France does force secularism on their government buildings and workers, including teachers. But public wearing of religious symbols or garnment is perfectly fine. They recently banned face covering, with the obvious target of Muslim women wearing burqa or niqabs, but everything else is perfectly legal to wear in public.
Every sign being banned in public? So what about all the crosses on the churches, or the ringing of their bells? What about people wearing crosses and nunns wearing the traditional dress? What about the easter processions in some places?
Sorry, but claiming that this would be in line with a secular policy doesnt work. It is target against muslims and muslims specifically without any actual bearing on secularism
These laws have been made to kick of the priest out of the school. If you're a nun or a priest and attend school you have to wear civil clothe.
I am fine saying that these laws are over used against Muslim,but religious signs are banned in school and for government employee
While i support it for government employees in schools or other jobs with the public, i think we also need to look at the role of the attire. Priests and Nunns wear specific attire to their religious role.
It is not day to day clothing for normal people. for the Abbaya, or we had the same discussion in Germany for Hijab or any scarf around the head i always found it absurd since my areligious grandmother wore a scarf covering her head all the time and she preffered clothing that weren't emphasizing her body shape. For day to day clothing or accessoires it becomes muddled quickly. is the cross on the wristlet a sign of religious affiliation, or just looking cute? Are the semi-moon earrings only worn by muslims, or does Anna-Sophia just like how it emphasizes her face? What about Marcs metal-band shirt with a cross on it? The only surefire way to "solve" it, would be to define a mandatory school uniform.
No it's not! Thousands of people walk around with religious symbols and garnments in public all the time in France.
Secularism is enforced in government offices and employed people.
As an American this is difficult to comprehend. I'm feeling culture shock. Maybe the first xenophobia I've experienced in years.
France doesn't have the First Amendment. I mean, I don't much think that this is a good idea either, but different country, different system of government.
For what it's worth, As a German I don' t particularly like the right to free speech as it exists in the US. It allows way too much, including harmful things. E.g. in Germany it is not allowed to glorify the Holocaust. I'm pretty sure such a thing would be allowed as free speech in the US.
I’m an American living in Germany. It’s not honestly much different in effect. In the US I could insult a police officer as much as I want (but you know… if I choose the wrong one they’ll fucking kill me), whereas it’s illegal in Germany. There’s a lot of things like that, where there’s technically the freedom to do something but it doesn’t really mean freedom
Yeah, you kinda privatized speech control. It*s interesting that in the US people can get easily fired over things they said on social media. In Germany that's harder. Not just because of legal protections (there are some, but they're not that strong) but also because there's an understanding that what can and cannot be said shouldn't be decided by people on Twitter/X but by the law.
Yup. There’s also a much stronger line between your work life and your private life. It’s wild to me (not bad, just very unexpected) that people with drug possession charges don’t lose their jobs here, even office workers or teachers
Especially those. For criminal things to become relevant they have to be connected to the job at hand. Hence drugs would be mainly an issue in areas where you operate heavy machinery.
Fun fact: You are allowed to lie about your criminal past in job interviews if it's those are not connected to the job. Hence any smart employer will only ask whether you were convicted of anything that is relevant to them. Otherwise firing you will be expensive. And of course it's also hard to employers to find out whether an employee has any criminal convictions. Afaik only a few select areas, e.g. the arms industry and kindergartens (the later look for sex and violence related crimes, not drugs), actually check criminal records and they do have to get permission from you or you'll even have to get the documents ("Führungszeugnis") yourself.
There are entire YouTube channels dedicated to people who film themselves screaming profanities at police officers in the US to get them to do something illegal.
This group of people calls themselves First Amendment Auditors.
A camera provides a lot of insurance in this case.
It's a smoke screen to get right wing voters on their side once again. Public services in France are in shambles, our education is getting noticeably worse by the decade and this is what these fucks focus on.
They've been doing this shit for years, though...
Absolutely, they are way more open about it nowadays though
That makes sense. Here in Canada they use similar tactics to distract people from stuff like the astronomical cost of housing, crumbling health care, underfunded education, etc.
Yeah, last year the conversation was about banning crop tops and this year it's long dresses, every September there's something to talk about in french schools.
Exactly this, and it's the perfect example of how "progressives" (that aren't really that) enable fascism.
No one is calling Frances government "progressive" so why are you attaching that label to this?
This is an example how right wing capitalists enable fascism.
Our government hides it less and less. They are basically proto fascists that would do anything to help their rich friends keep their power.
In other words: Nudist "clothing" is banned from the entire public safe very few exceptions.
In Spain you are allowed to walk around naked on any public spaces, with very few exceptions. It doesn't happen very often in practice, but it's allowed.
Yeah, that is how you actually let people decide to wear what they want. Afaik Spain also doesn't have burqa ban or anything similar (at least not in general, there may be rules in special cases).
I'm just always a bit annoyed when US-Americans criticise it when European countries ban certain clothing. They have rather draconian laws at home as well. And of course we're talking about schools here, hence school uniforms provide another relevant and rather widespread example of infringements on clothing-freedom.
I love you
I love you too 😁