this post was submitted on 13 Jan 2025
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Given that we've moved almost all of Norway to EVs, that's obviously untrue. So if you re-examine that assumption, what new conclusions do you come to?
So what’s the secret sauce? What profound technological steps forward have they made?
Or are they just heating up the battery, and eating further into the already severely impacted battery life?
I'm not an engineer. I'm pointing out that the real world is proving that EVs can work just fine in the cold, so your assertion that they can't doesn't hold any water. This was a recent article of interest, though.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2025/01/cold-weather-range-hits-arent-as-bad-for-evs-with-heat-pumps/
If you're using heat pumps, and not resistive heating for batteries, looks like the range loss can be as little as ~12%, which is pretty insignificant.
Read over what you just wrote, and think about it for a second. If they have to be heated up to function, it supports my assertion that they do not function in extreme cold.
That 12% is not insignificant, and that’s just for the piece to keep the battery at minimal operating temperature. The battery’s capacity and performance will also be severely impacted on top of that, even with it warmed up. These inefficiencies and workarounds add up to the point that they eclipse the inefficiencies in hydrogen production, as the hydrogen is not impacted by any such issues at the point of use.
The loss of efficiency in an ICE is roughly 15% in the cold as well.
There are enormous materials issues with storing and transporting hydrogen that don’t scale well
Why would they need to be scaled? Hydrogen is abundant in most corners of the globe. It can be farmed on site, as needed.
They function at a 12% range loss. That is a far cry from 'do not function'
No it's not. It's total range loss, not battery capacity reduction. The article even states that the majority of that range loss is due to heating the cabin, not the battery. Which ICE vehicles would have to do anyway. The car gets 12% less total range, that's the final figure taking everything else into account. You seem to have made up your mind about what you wish to support and are dismissing anything else that does not support your PoV.
You’re incredibly confident for being so blatantly incorrect.
We had negative 30 C last winter. I drove my EV to work every single day. When the batteries were cold I had reduced power available, which made no difference at all as it was -30 C and snow everywhere.
Using the battery also heats it up. Zero pre-heating of the batteries. I can literally watch my available power return while driving normally.
If batteries wouldn’t work in the extreme cold, they would not be able to turn over the starter on your ICE car either, which it very clearly does….
You are literally arguing against something close to a million people do in Norway every single day between November and March. Open a map and look how far north we stretch. Oslo is as far north as Vancouver. People live and drive EV’s in Hammerfest.
So please, just stop. You are dead wrong about batteries/EV’s, but take this chance to learn something new.
Well we just had snow sweep across the eastern US last week, nowhere near as cold as Norway, and just that was enough to brick the cars and freeze up the charging stations to the point of barely working. So let us know where you all are getting these magic batteries.
We also had EV’s catching fire in the southern US throughout the summer. Not sure why the anti-hydrogen crowd is dead set on us forcing EV’s into these environments where it’s problematic.
The exact same batteries as you have in your EV’s, which is why you are either ill-informed or lying. I am guessing it’s the first, so I am arguing in good faith.
Just take a step back: A country with 5,5 million people and 93% of all new cars are EV’s. Who has more knowledge on how they work in the cold? You, my new found friend on Lemmy, or us?
Not trying to be snarky, but we drive them every single day in winter. Batteries do not need to be heated to work, so please stop spreading this lie.
They DO however need a certain battery temp to charge, but that’s a different discussion.
I’m not arguing against hydrogen cars. I am just correcting some if the claims you have made.
https://youtu.be/tzrUkgbVoro
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/17/business/tesla-charging-chicago-cold-weather.html
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/16/1224913698/teslas-chicago-charging-extreme-cold
Guess all of these people are in on the conspiracy?
Did you read your own links at all before sending them?
You need more chargers. Not the cars fault.
Yes, like I said: cold batteries charge slower. This is well known. Drive a bit before expecting to push 200 kW into a frozen battery. I’ve ghit my max (155 kW) many times.
Also well known. All cars use more energy to heat up the cabin in winter, including ICE vehicles.
Crazy, it works for some. Maybe they have these magical batteries you accused us of having?
Which nobody ever denied being true.
Incredible! Her car must be exported from Norway! Zero issues in 10 years, just like we experience here! Unbelieveable.
I’m out of this argument now. You have demonstrated that you have absolutely zero knowledge of how EV’s work and you are a waste of everybodys time and energy.
Stay clueless and ignorant, I don’t really care, but for anyone reading this in the future: surph_ninja literally argued batteries don’t work in the cold in a thread about EV’s being sold in the frozen hellhole called Norway. The irony is incredible.
You’re having trouble sticking to a lane. Is it ‘there are no issues’ or ‘the issues are known’?
These known issues are not a problem for hydrogen.
Literally your quote that I responded to and the lane I’ve been trying to stick to and make you admit is blatantly wrong.
You still haven’t which is proof to the rest of us you are ether a troll or an idiot.
WTF is wrong with your logic process? Why would you remove a key component of the car? Lets take the starter out of ICE vehicles. Oh hey, they don't function in any temperature at all!
The point is clear that ICE vehicles work just fine if properly engineered for cold climates.
Would you like to bring sources to this discussion? Here's mine.
Oh, were you just pointing to 1-in-a-million incidents as reasons to shelve an entire technology. Tsk.
There's nothing abundant and clean about them in the current car ecosystem. I'll grant there's a possibility of that, but that doesn't mean much when the competition has already delivered.
When did I claim they’d work without a starter? You claimed the EV’s work in extreme cold… by heating them up. So they don’t work in extreme cold, which is exactly why they must be heated up.
We’re not talking about global averages of EV batteries catching fire. We’re talking about the increased risk of them doing so in extreme heat. Since we’re in the middle of climate collapse, and greenhouse gases are continuing to accumulate, more and more areas will be experiencing extreme heat.
I’m not saying there’s no place for EV’s in cleaning up our planet. But demanding we commit to only EV’s, and just ignore the areas of the planet they can’t perform in, is absolutely asinine. Especially when we have the hydrogen tech ready to roll out.
You're being ridiculously (and inaccurately) facetious. EVs refer to the entire car, not the battery alone. If anybody had claimed the batteries work just fine at cold temps (which nobody did), that'd be a different matter. EVs designed for cold climate work just fine in those climates.
To begin with, that was not part of my original discussion, and I have little knowledge on that issue. However, since we're on that, can you show some sources that there's a significantly increased fire risk in summer, and how that compares to ICE vehicles? Based on the info I linked, they'd have to increase by several orders of magnitude to be doing worse than ICE vehicles.
Who demanded that? This conversation started when you claimed that EVs couldn't work in cold climates, and that's the only thing I'm really taking dispute with.
Secret sauce is Norway gets money the same place Saudi Arabia does: gas and oil. They have really good resources to do whatever they want and unlike dumb countries like saudi arabia or russia they manage it better.