this post was submitted on 17 Jan 2025
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menby

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A space for masculine folks to talk about living under patriarchy.

Detoxing masculinity since 1990!

You don’t get points for feminism, feminism is expected.

Guidelines:

  1. Questions over blame
  2. Humility over pride
  3. Wisdom over dogma
  4. Actions over image

Rules (expansions on the guidelines):

  1. Mistakes should be learning experiences when possible.
    • Do not attack comrades displaying vulnerability for what they acknowledge are mistakes.
    • If you see good-faith behavior that's toxic, do your best to explain why it's toxic.
    • If you don't have the energy to engage, report and move on.
    • This includes past mistakes. If you've overcome extreme reactionary behavior, we'd love to know how.
    • A widened range of acceptable discussion means a greater need for sensitivity and patience for your comrades.
    • Examples:
      • "This is reactionary. Here's why."
      • "I know that {reality}, but I feel like {toxicity}"
      • "I don't understand why this is reactionary, but it feels like it {spoilered details}"
  2. You are not entitled to the emotional labor of others.
    • Constantly info-dumping and letting us sort through your psyche is not healthy for any of us.
    • If you feel a criticism of you is unfair, do not lash out.
    • If you can't engage self-critically, delete your post.
    • If you don't know how to phrase why it's unfair, say so.
  3. No singular masculine ideal.
    • This includes promoting gender-neutral traits like "courage" or "integrity" as "manly".
    • Suggestions for an individual to replace a toxic ideal is fine.
    • Don't reinforce the idea the fulfillment requires masculinity.
    • This also includes tendency struggle-sessions.
  4. No lifestyle content.
    • Post the picture of your new grill in !food (feminine people like grills too smh my head).
    • Post the picture of the fish you caught in !sports (feminine people like fish too smdh my damn head).
    • At best, stuff like this is off-topic. At worst, it's reinforcing genders norms..
    • If you're not trying to be seen as masculine for your lifestyle content, it's irrelevant to this comm. If you are trying to be seen as masculine, let's have a discussion about why these things are seen as masculine.

Resources:

*The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by Bell Hooks

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non-reactionary male focused podcasts (hexbear.net)
submitted 6 days ago by Assian_Candor@hexbear.net to c/menby@hexbear.net
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i was thinking last night about how sad it is that the main content out there for our young men to consume is basically reactionary dumbasses interviewing celebs or athletes or whatever. i was thinking it would be cool if a podcast existed that was just like regular dudes and getting their thoughts on masculinity, the family, relationships etc

the types of topics young men might be interested in and look to their fathers for guidance but not everyone has that, or some fathers are shitheads

is there anything like that out there? and if not would anyone be interested in recording some interviews and seeing if its any good?

i was thinking about trying to come up with like 3-4 questions to start as a template to ask everyone then following the conversation and seeing where it goes from there

i also just had a high abv beer and have adhd so i might never follow up on this lol

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[–] Murple_27@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

One podcast episode will never hook these people to listen to more: the strategy must begin elsewhere (like shaming or women denying them their objectification) so that reflection is required. But that reflection is most successful when they are confronted directly.

I'm gonna be direct with you here, no amount of personal or public shaming has ever gotten me to change any view I've ever had; definitely not from strangers on the internet. It usually just makes me see whoever is trying to shame me as a personal enemy, not somebody to suck up to. The only time I've ever actually changed my opinion on anything (with regards to fundamental values & not simple "facts about the world") is when they either directly conflicted with me achieving my own goals, or it resulted in somebody I care about getting hurt & I felt bad about that.

I don't think that shaming men is going to result in any kind of general shift in behavior, especially since that's kind of been the default way of engaging with men from a Feminist position generally for as long as it's been a thing. You have to highlight either how it actively impedes them from achieving what they want, or harms people they actually care about.

[–] MLRL_Commie@hexbear.net 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I never said online, and in fact had in mind direct confrontation from people physically near you. I'm thinking here of a woman calling a misogynist a pig. But I also think that "shaming" as a tactic hasn't succeeded because of the material conditions of men in society, of course. So the ones who are salvageable will change after some shaming (and I will admit to being raised misogynistically and leaving that behind after being confronted by people, so I'm a direct example), and those who aren't won't be saved. The big shift people have imagined +and blame feminism for not achieving) is entirely because of the patriarchal society and it's structures reinforcing misogyny.

[–] Murple_27@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

But I also think that “shaming” as a tactic hasn’t succeeded because of the material conditions of men in society, of course.

In considering material conditions, there is what one is able to do as a consequence of the position that they hold in relation to others; and there is what one needs to do in order to secure their survival & posterity. If it is always a conflict between the personal agency of women & the ability of men to secure their livelihoods, then most men are always going to at some level resent that agency, or the choices made with it. Hence, the drive to create a Patriarchal society.

Dissolving that drive is a challenge of reconciling the ability of men to meet their material needs, with the freedom & agency of women.

Edit: I should clarify that this is meant to engage with the question of how to stop men being personally misogynistic, not how to empower women to combat it. These are two different questions, with different answers, although the latter is probably more important historically.

So the ones who are salvageable will change after some shaming... and those who aren’t won’t be saved.

What is this Christian Evangelical/Calvinist nonsense?

[–] MLRL_Commie@hexbear.net 1 points 5 days ago

Who is the revolutionary subject in the class struggle between men and women? My point is this: the people who can see oppression of women and want to change it can be "saved" in the sense that they can be non-misogynyst and work towards the Liberation of women. The others are not subjects to be worked with on this front, and due to their material conditions won't be until we can shift those conditions.

This is all in response to the idea of a leftist pipeline through a "leftist Joe Rogan" or something of the sort. My point is that there is nobody who is important to work with on the topic who will be moved at all by such a thing. It's a tactic which mismatches with the target group. The people for whom a pipeline is needed won't react to it (because of material conditions at the moment) so the focus should be on their conditions. The people who would react to that pipeline wouldn't have any interest in it, because they are already sympathetic.

It might help some very unique cases, but it's not relevant to any bigger movement.