this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2025
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I just wish we had a bit more political balance here... I'm not talking about fascists, but more people that don't blame everything on capitalism would be kind of nice...
[Entire world on fire] "I just wish everyone wasn't so fixated on discussing the fire, how it started and who's responsible..."
You have to realize how mesmerizingly obtuse your comment is?
Lol. Yes, I'm obtuse. You aren't, but I am. Great argument.
Not trying to get into a whole ugly thing, just curious what your pro-capitalism stance is. Because I would definitely fall into this big Lemmy category of seeing 90-905% of modern problems being rooted in capitalism. So I would (civilly!) disagree, no doubt. Doesn’t mean we can’t have a reasonable discussion!
I don't have much time and energy for long discussions, but I just wanna share my feelings.
I feel like people here see capitalism as a very black and white thing. Either it's there and corrupting everything or it's gone and everything is awesome. Personally I don't think that's the case. In my opinion there are some cases where the market can solve things more efficiently than a government institution, granted that this market is regulated and controlled by the government. I'm against unbounded capitalism like we see way too often nowadays.
But here in western Europe, while certainly not perfect, the situation is way better than in the US. The government controls companies, gives them a slap on the wrist if they get too greedy. And while it still poisons a lot that it touches, the competitive aspect of it also makes sure that many inefficiencies are cut. In my opinion even we are not regulating it enough, and I do consider myself left-wing. But completely abolishing capitalism doesn't make sense to me either.
I think some things are better left to the government, stuff like healthcare, public transport, utilities like water or maybe even energy. Other things are better left private (but regulated): restaurants, barbers, supermarkets, most product development like phones, cameras, cars, computers, etc. There's a huge grey area there that I don't really have an opinion on.
But I don't see how a society without capitalism can provide stuff like decent smartphones, game consoles, restaurants, festivals, etc. These more "luxury" goods rely on competition to innovate and provide decent experiences, and here capitalism works better in my view.
I would also be interested in a defence of capitalism that doesn't come down to "but the USSR" or similar.
Even Karl Marx noted capitalism's dynamism and ability to cause change. In my own case, I went from poverty to modest wealth in a capitalist system, and I know many others who had similar experiences. I'm also aware that it empowers sociopaths, causes corruption, of its tendency to degenerate to oligopoly, and its failure to adequately address externalities.
And there are many, many variants of capitalism. The one now prevalent in the US is one of the more lethal strains. Improperly regulated capitalism such as that is a nightmare. Properly regulated, many of its negative features can be mitigated. I could stand living in a social democracy until a better alternative is piloted and proven.
Yeah I agree with this as well. It's not a binary view: either for or against capitalism. You can disapprove of everything happening in the US right now and still be for some form of capitalism.
Most people I know think that the US has gone way too far with their strand of capitalism, and yet they almost range from the complete left-to-right in terms of Dutch politics. Only the very right wing people here think that the US is doing something good right now. The rest, from center-right (or even proper neoliberal) all the way to the commies see a system that is failing in some way.
Yet on Lemmy this nuance seems completely lost sometimes. You're either a part of the capitalists/liberals and therefore approve of the oligarchy and dystopian capitalism in the US, or you join the radical "destroy capitalism" views. It's gotten better after the insane people from Hexbear left tho
Yeah, because I consider myself a pretty reasonable person. People have a big problem these days of never engaging with nuance, no matter how much you try to bring any conversation back to it. Things are definitely not as binary as people seem to only be able to conceive of them. The entire world and even the most seemingly clear cut issues have loads of grey area that people just can’t discuss because as soon as you say, “yes, I agree we need to ____! But we need to discuss the trickier parts” it turns into a witch hunt for anyone pointing out anything that might be considered a tricky part because it goes against the “I’m 100% on this side and it’s the only right opinion.”
It’s frustrating.
Human greed is not because of capitalism. Humans have been greedy from the very beginning.
The issue is greed, it's the core problem in all these human systems, even democracy main issue is how greedy the politicians get.
You don't solve greed by getting rid of capitalism, there seems not to be a solution for greed.
I mean, I mostly agree with this. You can boil any problem down to existence. And existence down to molecular processes.
But two things: discussing modern problems, it’s all built on systems. And the system we deal with is capitalism.
Human fallibility is the problem, ultimately. But there is no overcoming human fallibility. So building systems that place peoples well being above all else is an actionable solution. Whereas solving human fallibility isn’t.
And secondly, hierarchy in all its forms. Which I would argue is the problem boiled down past the system to look at its problematic parts. Does a system rely on or serve needs in a hierarchical manner? Then that’s the problem.
That’s as far as I think is logical to go. Digging down further to human nature is a problem for a utopian society to deal with, and that we are nowhere near to achieving. So, my point is we need to deal with the first layer of problems. And that would be capitalism. Abolishing hierarchy in all its forms comes second.
The first because the system rewards the worst parts of our nature. The second because it’s almost uniformly led to corruption. Those are the root problems, from my point of view. Human fallibility is, I’m afraid, baked into the cookie. But removing systems that reward those errors instead of eradicating them should be job one.
Then the problem lies with democracy not with capitalism.
Capitalism is an economic system, the "first layer of problems" as you call them would be the systems we use every day and those systems have been built by the government.
What is the difference between US and Germany? Both are capitalist nations, but one is socialdemocracy and the other isn't.
But I would argue a country with two parties isn't really a democracy.
LOL. I'm not pro-capitalism, but thank you for proving my point.
I actually think, as one example, the US's healthcare system should 100% be socialized.
Proving your point…about what? I was just curious to hear someone’s thoughts who went against the idea that most modern problems can be traced back to the roots of capitalism. But fuck me, right?
Public provision of services is not socialism, it's just common sense. The first mass state pension system was rolled out by that crusty reactionary Bismarck. Every rightwing country still has fire departments and (mostly) public road systems too. Not doing it that way is just stupidity, not ideology.
What is socialism is when people doing the work have control of the means of production. Control, not a token share. One example is cooperatives. By this definition (which goes back to Karl Marx), neither the USSR nor Communist China were socialist, they were totalitarian state capitalist entitites. China still is, though less incompetent than under Mao. And this isn't some revisionist point of view. Rosa Luxemburg and other contemporaries saw it happening at the onset.
The public healthcare and pension fund that Spain used today were created during the fascist dictatorship, as many other things that just made sense.
As I said in another post, the main issue is greed. Why does the US don't have a public healthcare system? Because of greed. It's so obvious humanity has classified greed was a problem for centuries.
Perhaps it is balanced you just want it to be more in line with your views?
I have never met anybody who said “yes, this community is perfectly balanced.” Everyone always thinks it needs to get more in line with their beliefs and values
Too late, capitalism is the problenz
Yes, it is. But it's not the only problem... In fact, there are a thousand other problems I wish we could all discuss with at least half the fervor as this topic.
But no. This is the topic.
Be the change, make some posts!
I'm sorry bud, but that's how the rumour mill worked since humans could talk. The message your trying to bring is good, don't get me wrong. You are trying to currently change human nature somewhat.
There are a few misconceptions in your comment:
While I do agree that there are other problems like racism and bigotry which existed before capitalism (based on an answer you gave in another comment) and while I do agree these also need to be addressed, I do disagree that capitalism isn't a major source of problems of modernity.
Why?
Because the cornerstone of capitalism is to use money to generate more money in a feedback loop towards (nonexistent) "infinite money" (which is different from feudalism, roman empire or ancient Egypt which all had some sort of market without being capitalist economies).
SInce it is impossible to make infinity money, an inherent part of capitalism are the crises cycles of boom and bust.
It also makes the creation of services as an afterthought (because making money is more important) and it is also tied to the enshitfication we're seeing today.
I think you're calling as "capitalism" a thing that is actually "technological innovation (under capitalism)"
We're all aware of free/open source softwares
We're all aware that it is possible to develop technological innovation outside of capitalist framework (and again: Capitalism = Using money to make more (infinite) money)
almost all of scientific researches advances are because of passion of the researches instead of the greed of capitalism.
Yes... Everyone "needs" money to survive. But I hope you do agree that nobody in the world needs billions of dollars to simply survive.
for God's sake, a lot of people living in "third world" dream of earning 300 dollars a month to survive and consider that making 1000 dollars a month is a small luxury (I'm from brasil and 1000 dollars is around R$ 4000 or R$ 5000 while most people lives with R$3000 or less)
What I'm saying is that, past the required money for surviving and for having a few "luxuries", there is no need for anyone having millions or billions of dollars every month and that it would be possible to keep scientific and technological grow under such conditions because curiosity and desire for changes are part of human nature.
if it was entirely impossible for humans to develop things without being paid before, then nothing around open/free software would exist.
I wonder what else is to blame ?
Human nature? Greed? Racism? Biggotry?
There's an upsetting number of topics... And now I'm depressed. Because life is depressing when you think about it too much, isn't it?
So, capitalism then.
It sure is. It's important to touch grass on a daily basis to stay sane. I personally go outside take a stroll and caress some leaves.
Regarding your initial point : I see "capitalism" as the family of systems that enable that kind of IT monopoly. Sure, human traits such as greed and bigotry are probably the source of evil but it seems to me they have to be tapped, and enabled. The fact that the conversation often ultimately turns back to capitalism is legitimate imho.
If nearly everything currently wrong with the country weren't due to capitalism run amok I could sympathize. But unfortunately it's not the 1960s anymore.
(segregation was a legacy of capital interests pushing race theory to justify slavery)
I mean I understand the 1950s and 1960s werent some utopia either, but before we just let capital run everything some aspects were better.
Okay, buddy. It's all capitalism. Good luck with your pamphlets! I actually like the idea of making Western nations question capitalism... This said, no. It's not "nearly everything" wrong with the world.
Wake up, my friend. It's 2025. Just because people in power are getting worse, doesn't mean we can't strive to be better.
Yep, let's rake our forests and rinse our recycling to handle climate change!
If your house burns to the ground, no worries, you can just collect floatsom from the beach and build a new one!
Dude, some things cannot be solved via positive vibes and being a good neighbor, and if you want my honest opinion on it, I think pushing everyday people to be accountable for everything while the broligarchs are accountable for nothing is a big part of the problem.
In other words, you should strive to be better than an apologist for the system.
Except the entire capitalist system works against us striving to be better. It's not like the American health care system sucks because the people in power suck. It sucks because to fix it you'd have to take capitalism out of the health care system because capitalism drives the profit motive within the health care system which makes it suck.
Same with transitioning from oil to renewables. Fucking Exxon knew half a century ago that climate change is a thing and will lead to catastrophic results. They were in prime position to shift from oil to renewables and reinvent the global energy system, but it was more profitable to run disinformation campaigns and actively work against the transition so they did that instead. Even now some of the oil CEO-s are like "we're already so fucked there's no reason to go for renewables so let us keep making that money".
Same is now going on with electric vehicles. It's much more profitable to sell ICE cars and fight the change instead of actually changing. I don't remember if it was Mercedes or WV or some other manufacturer, anyway one of the big german car CEOs pretty much went "we can't change to electric vehicles in time for the regulations. But you shouldn't punish us with fines because we're too big to fail."
The list goes on. The reason people here are so anti-capitalist is because most of us see that even if we want to strive to be better we can't because capitalism keeps dragging us down. It's like that scene in "Don't look up" where the world comes together to save itself and just as the crisis is about to be averted the capitalist tech bro fucks it all up because who cares if we're risking our entire planet, there's money to be made. Capitalism will try its best to undermine any effort that prevents maximizing profits.
Do you really think we'll get to the 15 hour work week in 2030, like Keynes predicted? Definitely not under the capitalist system. We have empirical evidence that 32 hour work week improves productivity and we can't even get that because the capital owners refuse to accept it. Literally something that could easily improve all our lives and we can't get it done because of capitalism.
Nobody is against striving to be better but wanting to get rid of capitalism is striving to be better because capitalism is like a steel ball attached to your ankle. It's just weighing down all your efforts to be better.
Most civilized countries know that there is more than one way to implement capitalism, and the current US way is a catastrophic shit show.
For real. I once had the misfortune to admit to having some Centrist ideas, and the down votes were immediate and generous. No discussion, just personal attacks.
And we wonder how things got to where they are.
Sorry this is a platform for people if you're an ostrich then please go back to sticking your head in the sand
Even ostriches aren't actually stupid enough to do that.
I'm not Dee Renolds, but you may think of me as such, if it makes the world feel safer for you.
That's gonna be kind of an issue in a network where civil discourse and disagreement falls between calling people a Nazi/fascist at best and wishing them double death by murder rape at worst
Just picturing that, as you type this, you have a swastika tattoo on your forehead.
"Why is everyone so judgemental? I'm not one thing! A person contains multitudes!!!"
It's a Windows logo!11! /s
Uhh... What?
If you're a Trump supporter, I respect that you may be confused... But Elon Seig Heiled yesterday, so...