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Can't we just agree that religions that teach women are subservient to men should be opposed? A concept of religious freedom that gives parents/fathers the right to compel observance on their children under threat of beatings or death is a fucked up sense of freedom. I don't blame France for trying to protect their secular society by banning religiously-derived garb in public schools - removing the power of parents to dictate such garb gives kids a chance early on to make up their own mind - do they like the freedom from family-mandated othering they experience at school, or do they like displaying that they are subserviant to men when compelled by their family?
That’s like every religion. The world would be MUCH better off if religion overall wasn’t a thing.
People keep saying this edgy take but that's impossible. As long as strong beliefs are held true by many individuals, there will always be a religion. Pastafarianism is a great example of an "anti-religion" that promotes the positive morals without the need for a deity (or the flying spaghetti monster as a joke), but in doing so, it ironically became a religion in itself.
Your take is edgy and divisive, despite intent. Even religions accept deity independent good depending on interpretation (God commands good because he or she observes it is good, the good isn't arbitrarily good because he or she commands it). But I agree, folks don't like to acknowledge the good religion has historically done in equal measure with the bad. Nuance matters. History is not black and white. So let's not be black and white on religion generally being good or bad.
Yea, I'm an atheist myself, but I only choose to be this way after learning about the world and other religions. I'm not about to shatter my grandma's reality that there's no God. It's all about respect at the end of the day.
Exactly. At the end of the day do we care why someone agrees to do something or that something should be permissible, or just that they agree to do something or that something is permissible. I don't care whether or not someone thinks rape or murder is wrong because God commands it or because they have a different moral basis. It's important that we agree that behavior is wrong.
Because non religious governments like China don't commit genocide and exercise authoritarian control?
Do they do it BECAUSE they lack religion? Or is that an irrelevant detail you're cherrypicking because it suits your argument?
People commit terrible acts because of their belief in sky fairies. Do people commit terrible acts because they don't believe in sky fairies? (Hint: no)
That's pretty much every religion I've seen when the interpretation comes from the conservative folk.
Yes ..agreed.. fuck religion. Brainwashing power house.
Id be great if all religions had age limits
Parents telling their daughters what to wear is wrong, so the state must intervene and tell the daughters to wear something that I personally find more agreeable.
How about we all just stop telling women what they can and can't wear?
Because school children are not adults, religious parents that believe females are subservient to men will continue to compel their children to comply. Then, suddenly, instead of the Catholic Church impinging on all aspects of society, you have islamic groups impinging on all aspects of society - same game, different religion. France is a secular society and fought hard to get that way.
So what about the grown adult women that want to wear a hijab? You take away their agency with laws 'to protect the children' (where have I heard that excuse to control people before?)
I actually went to school with girls that wore the hijab. I asked them why they wore it, some said because their dad made them and others said it kept grown adult men from trying to hit on them on the bus.
If you want to help the girls who's fathers or husbands are forcing them to wear a hijab, then you should create a society where women don't have to be dependent on financial support from family members and they can make the decision themselves, rather then forcing them to dress like you personally want.
Grown adult women aren't allowed to wear a hijab in public school either. Girls and women are perfectly free to wear whatever they want/are forced to wear by the men in their lives, outside of public schools.
Oppose behaviors and actions. Religion is messy. There are so many different interpretations with differences of denomination and sect. Don't oppose religion. Oppose the concrete human actions and the people that support and promote those actions. If those people are religious leaders, so be it.
Don't oppose superstitions that breed bad behavior? Why not?
Because you are shooting yourself in the foot if you want to establish a pluralist and tolerant society.
If we're talking ideals, I'd love to live in a society that isn't pluralistic when it comes to religion. It's all based in nonsense.
Ideally the populace is educated enough to not be religious. Because, as I'm sure you know, religiosity decreases as education increases.
We should definitely dump money in education, for many reasons.
Religion can be a weapon used by those in power to suppress the people or parts thereof (like women).
Blaming religion is not the answer. In fact Islam came to erase the practice of killing girls that was prominent in the region. Additionally, both Quran and Islamic teaching makes it very clear that killing any soul is a no no except for war or crimes.
So where this killing came from ? I am not sure but considering it exists in many countries and between religious and non-religious groups sugget it is something else. I would assume it is the tribal culture and poor living conditions.
I'm sorry, but this is incredibly misleading. Islam's definition of crimes that are punnishable by death includes things like apostasy. We shouldn't pretend that changing one's mind or disagreeing with a religion that was chosen for you is a crime.
I dated a non-observant Muslim girl who in college who kept my existence a secret because she was terrified of her father finding out she was dating a non-Muslim. Her father was “traditional” basically went to mosque on big holidays. But she was still absolutely madly panicked about him finding out about me.
Things I learned: a lot of ex-Muslims keep calling themselves Muslims because they’re afraid; a lot of “cultural Muslims” exist that are sort of like cultural Catholics — all the guilt, none of the belief; and that there isn’t really “progressive Islam” the way there is “progressive Christianity”—all flavors of modern islam that have enough adherents to matter are fundamentalist, it’s just a matter of degree. There’s no group of consequence that thinks the Koran is just a revered book or thinks that their way is but one of many to connect with the divine, etc.
I've known many tolerant Muslims. I've also known how afraid they have been of their families finding out how there tolerance informs their behavior, and how badly it works out for them when their families do find out.