959
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[-] novibe@lemmy.ml 19 points 10 months ago

Capitalism =/= markets.

Socialism =/= public services.

Markets are much older than capitalism, and socialism is a very simple economic idea, being the collective ownership of the means of production by the workers.

Capitalism guides innovation towards increasing profits for capitalist, hardly “innovative”. The USSR was the first to the Moon, after being a feudalistic society, thanks to socialism.

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 19 points 9 months ago

Imean, the USSR wasn't even good socialism. They still used money for quite a large set of things, businesses were very much NOT worker owned in many places, people could be killed by the whims of authorities and a dictator... Yep, not even good socialism got to space first.

[-] novibe@lemmy.ml -4 points 9 months ago

I mean, not having money is a communism thing, not socialism.

But most businesses in the USSR were co-ops or state-owned.

I’m not in the “the dictatorship of the proletariat is identical to collective ownership” camp, but I mean, that is in the end a difference of ideology regarding what socialism really is.

And…. What dictator? I mean, all that “there’s no freedom in the USSR, if Stalin thinks you’re ugly you go to the gulag” is 100% propaganda, right? I mean the CIA admitted in their secret reports that not even Stalin was really a dictator, but that disclosing that wouldn’t be politically favourable to the US.

And like… I don’t think the USSR killed anymore people than the US or Europe lmao

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

State owned is EXACTLY NOT "worker owned".

What dictator? As if people couldn't or weren't put to death at Stalin's word over simole paranoia??

[-] novibe@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago

I would agree, but many socialists wouldn’t.

And man… please don’t come with this Stalin bullshit. If you really think he was “le big evil gulag no food man”, please for the love of god read a bit more, from non Empire-propaganda sources.

I say this strongly as a non-communist (in the USSR sense).

I don’t have any “labels” like that but I more strongly align with anarchism. I also believed Stalin, Mao, Lenin etc were big evil men. But bro, 90% of it really, truly, is propaganda.

[-] PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Lol, you say that but... Guess you started the gulag system? You guessed it, Lenin! Who brought it to it's apex? Staline! Does it continue to this day? Yes!

Here's another great example of Stalins legacy:

The Road of Bones

"The Dalstroy construction directorate built the Kolyma Highway during the Soviet Union's Stalinist era. Inmates of the Sevvostlag labour camp started the first stretch in 1932, and construction continued with the use of gulag labour until 1953."

"The road is treated as a memorial by some, as the bones of the estimated 250,000–1,000,000 imprisoned laborers[3] who died while constructing it were allegedly laid beneath or around the road, although documented sources have yet to confirm this through further evidence"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R504_Kolyma_Highway

This article has pictures:

"Prisoners spent 20 years building the road, from 1932 to 1952, and after that the camp was closed. According to official data, there were roughly 700 thousand prisoners working in this Gulag branch during these years, peaking in 1940, when 190 thousand men worked there in mining and construction works. It’s estimated that more than 125 thousand people perished during the camp’s existence."

https://www.rbth.com/history/333033-road-bones-kolyma-gulag

[-] PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Side note: we have a family friend who had half of his family sent to the Soviet gulags in the 1950s. Most of them died there. He's Polish.

[-] novibe@lemmy.ml -1 points 9 months ago

Hum… and? Outside of the propaganda, yea gulags and? I don’t see the point.

Are you saying prisons are bad? I agree, I’m fully a prison abolitionist. But I don’t see how saying “look prisons!” is any argument against the USSR in particular.

Prisons have existed for a long time everywhere. And many times and in many places were much worse than the gulags.

Just keep in mind that again, 90% of what you read on gulags is literal Cold War and Nazi propaganda…

[-] PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 1 points 9 months ago

You're full of bullshit. Cite your sources that Gulags were like a typical prison, because they are obviously not.

Exporting 18 million people to the middle of fucking nowhere where it reaches -53C to work camps outside resulting in millions of deaths is definitely not normal.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 4 points 9 months ago

“there’s no freedom in the USSR, if Stalin thinks you’re ugly you go to the gulag” is 100% propaganda, right?

Sure buddy. That was just a psyop that the MAN wants us to believe so we don't revolt and bring back communism.

[-] novibe@lemmy.ml -1 points 9 months ago

Oh no, I’m brainwashed! Lmao

Sure buddy. Go back to believing everything your school textbooks and journalists on TV have been saying since the Cold War.

[-] Wakmrow@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago

We can appreciate the achievements of the USSR and still accept its failures

[-] novibe@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago

And I do do that. But any discussion or discourse on this is muddled with Nazi propaganda talking points, and it’s impossible to truly praise and truly critique the USSR without people calling you a “tankie”…

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 1 points 9 months ago
[-] novibe@lemmy.ml 1 points 9 months ago

I think I’m already there friendo.

[-] Another3quenc@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

I wonder if those accomplishments were meant to happen if they hadn't had an ideological enemy in the 'capitalist west'.

[-] killa44@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Your point isn't completely invalid, but it's a circular argument. Whatever the external force was, the system had the ability to complete the objective.

One could actually argue that sending a person to the moon didn't directly achieve anything for the people, so that wouldn't necessarily have been a goal by itself anyway and was a waste of resources.

[-] novibe@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago

What’s the point? If there was no space race the USSR would likely just invest even harder on cybernetics and information technology, as they were also pioneers in these areas, for example.

[-] PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

The Soviet Unions industrial development was ironically funded by American capitalists during the 1920s through the 1940s. Without that massive influx of knowledge, technical expertise and capital, the Soviet Union would never have industrialized at the rate that it did. It might not even have succeeded. However, I am not an expert in Soviet history either.

Albert Khan was a American industrial architect who was responsible for designing and building American car, tractor and other factories for heavy industrial equipment in the United States. Starting in the 1920s, he traveled to the Soviet Union and designed and lead co instruction of ~500 massive state-run industrial plants using American equipment and machines. This is also similar to how Japan industrialized following the end of the Tokugawa shogunate during the Japanese civil War.

"When “the architect of Ford,” Albert Kahn, designed the River Rouge complex outside Detroit in 1917, Calder was one of the field engineers, but he had never worked on a project on the Soviet scale before. Everything from steel to skylights was coming from the U.S. by boat, special-built train, trucks, and, yes, camels. In barely a year’s time the factory would begin pumping out 50,000 tractors per year, operated by workers who lived across a strip of lawn in government apartment blocks that Calder was also building. Close to 400 U.S. workers were supervising the job, mostly from Detroit. Though their families shivered through the Russian winter in underheated homes, Calder and the rest of Kahn’s experts thrilled at the challenge. And there were 500 more factories to go."

"Though the collaboration has been all but forgotten, evidence suggests that more than 1,200 U.S.-based architects, engineers, designers, and foremen seeded the Soviet industrial revolution. In just three years, they built upwards of 500 factories, trained more than 3,000 Soviet staff, and brought lessons back home that have yet to be fully understood."

https://lsa.umich.edu/lsa/news-events/all-news/search-news/built-in-the-u-s-s-r---by-detroit-.html

this post was submitted on 11 Sep 2023
959 points (88.7% liked)

Political Memes

4623 readers
2900 users here now

Welcome to politcal memes!

These are our rules:

Be civilJokes are okay, but don’t intentionally harass or disturb any member of our community. Sexism, racism and bigotry are not allowed. Good faith argumentation only. No posts discouraging people to vote or shaming people for voting.

No misinformationDon’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.

Posts should be memesRandom pictures do not qualify as memes. Relevance to politics is required.

No bots, spam or self-promotionFollow instance rules, ask for your bot to be allowed on this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS