this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2023
75 points (97.5% liked)

Ask Science

8645 readers
1 users here now

Ask a science question, get a science answer.


Community Rules


Rule 1: Be respectful and inclusive.Treat others with respect, and maintain a positive atmosphere.


Rule 2: No harassment, hate speech, bigotry, or trolling.Avoid any form of harassment, hate speech, bigotry, or offensive behavior.


Rule 3: Engage in constructive discussions.Contribute to meaningful and constructive discussions that enhance scientific understanding.


Rule 4: No AI-generated answers.Strictly prohibit the use of AI-generated answers. Providing answers generated by AI systems is not allowed and may result in a ban.


Rule 5: Follow guidelines and moderators' instructions.Adhere to community guidelines and comply with instructions given by moderators.


Rule 6: Use appropriate language and tone.Communicate using suitable language and maintain a professional and respectful tone.


Rule 7: Report violations.Report any violations of the community rules to the moderators for appropriate action.


Rule 8: Foster a continuous learning environment.Encourage a continuous learning environment where members can share knowledge and engage in scientific discussions.


Rule 9: Source required for answers.Provide credible sources for answers. Failure to include a source may result in the removal of the answer to ensure information reliability.


By adhering to these rules, we create a welcoming and informative environment where science-related questions receive accurate and credible answers. Thank you for your cooperation in making the Ask Science community a valuable resource for scientific knowledge.

We retain the discretion to modify the rules as we deem necessary.


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Think "you wake up in the woods naked," Dr. Stone-style tech reset. How could humans acquire a 1-gram weight, a centimeter ruler, an HH:MM:SS timekeeping device, etc. starting with natural resources?

My best guess was something involving calibrating a mercury thermometer (after spending years developing glassblowing and finding mercury, lol) using boiling water at sea level to mark 100 ° C and then maybe Fahrenheit's dumb ice ammonium chloride brine to mark -17.7778 ° C, then figuring out how far apart they should be in millimeters on the thermometer (er, somehow). I can already think of several confounding variables with that though, most notably atmospheric pressure.

I feel like the most important thing to get would be a length measurement since you can then get a 1 gram mass from a cubic centimeter of distilled water.

That's as far as I got with this thought experiment before deciding to ask the internet. I actually asked on Reddit a while back but never got any responses.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] A_A@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The metre was originally defined in 1791 (...) as one ten-millionth of the distance from the equator to the North Pole along a great circle, so the Earth's circumference is approximately 40000 km.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre

The kilogram was originally defined in 1795 during the French Revolution as the mass of one litre (1/1000 m³) of water.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram

... and the last major SI unit is the second which of course you know is (originally was) 1/86400 day.

Please notice about the Celsius scale : the second reference point isn't a mixture of ice and salt but rather pure water freezing point.

Now how can we as naked humans develop technology to figure this out is something of historical proportion, that's a quite amazing story !

[–] meteotsunami@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Your definition of the meter leaves out the most interesting part. Yes, it was 1,000, 000th the distance of the equator to the North Pole, but how far is that? That wasn't known accurately in the 18th Century. So, two Frenchmen, Delambre and Mechain conducted the longest meridian survey every attempted. They also did so while half of Europe was at war with one another. It was an amazingly dangerous endeavor. There is also significant evidence they totally flubbed and hand-waived their results. So, although their science ended up being questioned, the process and method was accepted and the Meter was defined.

[–] janus2@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Re Celsius 0 °: the reason I thought perhaps Fahrenheit's Weird Brine might be a more absolute thing to take de novo temperature from was because I don't actually know the answer to "how can you ensure water is exactly freezing temperature?" If it's solid ice it could be colder, if it's liquid it's probably warmer, and even if it's a bucket of cold distilled water with distilled water ice in it, isn't it still likely hotter than 0 ° C? I feel like there's probably something involving equilibrium between solid and liquid water that would be difficult to sus out

Not that Weird Brine is any better really 🤦‍♀️

[–] A_A@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

if you have both liquid and solid water at equilibrium then you have zero degrees Celsius. Pressure has minimal effects ...at plus or minus 0.5 atmosphere. of course if you go to a hundred or a thousand atmosphere then there is an effect of pressure.
Small pieces of ice will equilibrate their temperature faster in water.
Surface tension has minimal effect on melting temperature unless you go to extremely small pieces of ice meaning less than one micron, ...which is not possible to achieve anyway because such small ice pellet with fuse rapidly to form larger ones.

[–] janus2@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah, so at sea level a bucket of ice water would make a decent approximation of 0 ° C, then, I suppose.

Didn't know really tiny ice particles spontaneously fused, this is neat to know

[–] A_A@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yes a bucket of a mixture of small ice pellets, say a few millimeter size, plus water, (this bucket being enveloped with some insulation) would be a great zero degrees Celsius reference point.

if you want something more precise you can read this :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsius

... "the actual melting point of ice is very slightly (less than a thousandth of a degree) below 0 °C." ...

isotopic distribution of heavy and light elements in water also has a very slight effect on melting point. So, rainwater and water distilled from ocean will not melt at the (exact) same temperature.

See : Vienna Standard Mean Ocean Water https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Standard_Mean_Ocean_Water

Now, about small particle fusing together this is true not only of ice but of any material.
it's called sintering and it is caused by diffusion and a lowering of the surface energy.
This process is faster when the material is near it's melting temperature and faster yet if in contact with any miscible liquid phase.

[–] burgersc12@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Can we improve things a bit? Hoping we can get a calendar with no leap year, even number of days in each month, no daylight savings, etc

Edit: obviously no one got what i meant. We can base the day of the year on whatever the fuck you want, but for the love of god can we not split it into twelve randomly numbered chunks, i hate how our months are!!

[–] Brokkr@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

There is a calendar that proposes to have 13 months, each with 28 days. That gives you 364 days. Day 365 is new years day and is not part of any month. There are still leap years because as stated, the Earth goes around the sun in 365.24... days. To not need leap years we'd need that to be a whole number.

[–] burgersc12@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I really like that one! Guess there's really no easy way around leap day, but i was thinking you could add an extra ~60.684 seconds to each day and pretend its the same thing? Even increasing the second to be slightly longer could make it possible i think, since we are restarting from scratch it would be easier to adjust it slightly

[–] joel_feila@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Assuming you can measure that precisely. We had to wait centuries to figure out the differebce between a solar and a sideral day.

[–] A_A@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

...calendar with no leap year ...

This would need the Earth to make one complete rotation around the Sun in an exact whole number of times it rotates around itself. ...which is not the case right now and extremely difficult (meaning near impossible) to change.

...no daylight savings...

Okay but now we have a greater problem : we have to change (twice, a year) the time when business, school , stores etc... open and close, for it to be convenient with outside natural light. So, in my opinion, this is not an improvement.