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Hamas tells Gaza City residents to stay put after Israel orders evacuation
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
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Translation: "If all the civilians leave, we won't be able to use them as human shields anymore."
Edit: It's also true that Israel has made it extraordinarily difficult to leave. They are not the good guys, here. But there are no good guys here except for the civilians, and we know Hamas is a terrorist organization that is perfectly willing to use them as human shields.
There's nowhere for them to go...
Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, and Israel just told them to fit in half as much space at a time when they have no fuel, water, or electricity.
It's fucking impossible. And if they actually move, the Palestinians are smart enough to know they will never be able to access that land again.
Hell, Hamas is the only ones with the resources to move
You think Israel will just stop and leave the Southern half?
Even if they did, they're keeping the northern part and annexing it.
But more likely they'll be invading the southern half immediately after taking the north.
They can't even leave Gaza, because Israel is attacking the exit to Egypt.
Stop acting like them moving is in any way a valid option. They are literally fucked no matter what they do. And it's been like this for a long long time.
I'm opposed to what Israel is doing but the truth is that Israel has repeatedly given back land they have captured during conflicts. So yes, they will not be annexing any land. As well, there is way too much international attention on them right now, whereas their approach of taking tiny bites has been subtle enough to avoid causing repercussions, so they most likely just go back to doing that at a later date.
The thing I don't understand about this invasion is what's stopping Hamas from just relocating south with the rest of the Palestinians? Sure they'll lose some heavier equipment that might be hard to move but they don't have that much of it to begin with. If they stay and fight they'll lose the equipment anyways, and only end up getting killed. Whereas if they leave with the civilians, then Israel will look stupid after invading Gaza only to find nothing. Huge failure for them.
Literally your first sentence is a lie whilst saying 'the truth is'
Where do you get your world news?
Apparently I get my world news from the history books, here's a few examples you can look up:
1967 Israel takes control of the entire Sinai Peninsula
1971 Israel returns Sinai Peninsula to Egypt
1982 Israel invades Lebanon after attacks from militants
1983 - 1985 Israel slowly withdraws from most of southern Lebanon
2000 Israeli completes withdrawal from Lebanon
2005 Israel withdraws all military and civilians from the Gaza Strip and hands over control to the Palestinian Authority
2007 Hamas violently overthrew the PA in Gaza (bet you didn't cry about this)
2023 Israel withdraws from Jenin in the West Bank after invading
Yeah... after fighting 3 countries and winning so hard they actually gained ground.
After creating a country by a series of escalating bombings of civilian targets, executions of political enemies, executions of religious enemies and you know, stabbings like the current Israelis screech about constantly and use as an excuse to level buildings.
Yeah in this case they didn't invade Lebanon for the land in the first place, they were just trying to genocide the Palestinians.
The settler thing is different because the intent is to steal the land
And they never built illegal settlements or evicted Palestinians from their homes. /s
Never claimed otherwise. In fact, I literally mentioned Israel stealing land when I wrote:
I guess that was too abstract?
In Gaza they stopped doing so in the mid 2000s.
I think you get all of the information about the reality of this war from headlines and mainstream Western outlets.
Tell you what, why don't your layout your excavation plan? I would strongly recommend you do at least some light reading about the reality on the ground first.
I find BBC's coverage quite impartial, even though a lot of their human side of the stories is from Israel.
There are also plenty Of Western media outlets who are trying to depict both points of view in this conflict which is admirable, but I presume the media in the US is more opinionated.
I also think what Hamas did was horrendous, but I know that the answer of Israel is not the solution either, and it is a pity just because politics and religion so many innocents from both sides have to suffer.
I'm sorry, but parroting the IDF is not credible. Especially considering we've already had reports in the last several days of these IDF evacuation routes being bombed by the IDF.
So either go read up on the realities of Gaza, or GTFO with your idiotic takes.
Have you thought that perhaps Israel could just not bomb a civilian area?
I'd argue that not leaving would hopefully discourage bombing the entire area and 2 million people losing their homes.
Israel "we'll do it anyway"
Who's the bad guys here?
Did you forget what prompted this only a few days ago? I don't know what kind of response they'd expect.
Did you forget what prompted that? I don't know what kind of response you expect from locking millions behind a wall on their own land.
Ahh right I forgot that old saying, how does it go? "Eye for an I'll kill your entire family"
Yes, but that's only the convenient half for the pro-Israeli media.
The inconvenient other half is that they have blocked EVERY possible exit from Gaza, including telling the Egyptians to not allow anyone out.
So, no food, fuel, electricity, medicine, water, or shelters. One of the MOST densely populated regions in the whole world, and they were just expected to what? Walk down the strip to sit in the 'safe' bombed out rubble?
Would they be allowed a "right of return" afterwards?
No good options for those residents. So you can use this to rightfully condem Hamas because it suits their political objectives, but that doesn't change the fact about the rest of what I've laid out.
So what would you do? Stay in your home and risk death? Or become homeless and only have a marginally less chance of death?
That’s exactly what I keep thinking about, to hell with what the controlling forces say, the two options in front of those residents aren’t really options. I can’t wrap my head around what that must be like.
Er... that's not true. They were initially telling Palestinians to go to Egypt. Egypt does not want them in the Sinai and told Israel to provide safe passage through Israel.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-to-bomb-rafah-crossing-to-egypt-after-telling-gazans-to-flee-through-it/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/rafah-border-gaza-egypt-israel-1.6994234
Yes, it's true that Egypt does not want to allow a mass exodus of refugees.
It's also true that Israel has been bombing that area as well.
So not sure what your point is.
It seems like the airstrikes damaging the crossing is a more recent development that I wasn't aware of. Your CBC article and the CNN article posted above are only an hour old. Your Times of Israel article says this:
Nope.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/middleeast/egypt-rafah-crossing-gaza-palestinians-mime-intl/index.html
Question: is it actually true that Israel doesn't want Palestinians to leave via the southern border to Egypt? I've heard on the news twice (BBC Hardtalk and somewhere else I can't recall now) that the opposite is true. From what I've heard, Israel wants the Palestinians to leave, but Egypt does not want to allow them into their country because it would be a huge burden to feed, house, and police a million+ angry refugees.
It also makes more sense from Israel's point of view to get the Palestinians out of Gaza. Israel's greatest danger is, and always has been, the opprobrium of the international community if they kill too many civilians. It would be a huge victory for Israel if the civilians all leave, which is why Hamas wants them to stay!
That's correct. Egypt does not want to take the Palestinians.
Egypt wants to, but Israel keeps bombing the Palestinian side of the border and won't agree to letting Egyptian aid in to clear it so people can escape from Israels attacks.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/middleeast/egypt-rafah-crossing-gaza-palestinians-mime-intl/index.html
article looks like Egyptian government just looked for an excuse to not help
Israel just want all Palestinian land, no matter how. If they leave, great. If they're all dead, fine. All they care about is the land. Of course Israel would prefer them to just leave and not be their issue anymore, but they caused the issue driving Palestinians into Gaza in the first place, and could just as easily let them out again.
Israel unitarily pulled out of Gaza in the mid 2000s. If all they wanted was to take all the land they could do so.
Answer:
Israel keeps saying it's open, but bombed it three times in 24 hrs too...
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-bombed-only-crossing-allowing-people-flee-gaza-palestine-egypt-2023-10?op=1
So the crossing is open on the Egypt side, but complete rubble and inaccessible on the Palestinian side
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/middleeast/egypt-rafah-crossing-gaza-palestinians-mime-intl/index.html
Israel is telling them to do something that's literally impossible.
In this case staying put will likely save more lives than trying to move 40k people per hour within 24 hours.
Not even Hamas themselves are saying they were doing it in order to prevent loss of lives during the evacuation.
A broken clock is right twice a day
40k?
It's 1.1 million people being told to leave their homes...
40k per hour
Nah, Israel wouldn't nuke it. Even they can't convince citizens to resettle there if it's been irradiated.
Israeli translation: if you don't get the fuck out so we can capture and resettle half your city we are more than happy, to commit mass murder instead.
Mass murder like attacking a festival and killing 260+ people?
Mass murder like threatening to kill 1.1 Million civilians.
Translation this is your land we have nothing left to lose because of systematic destruction of our land and Culture.