this post was submitted on 25 Oct 2023
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How fucking hard is it to say mass-murdering civilians is bad, in general? Hamas, at best, can say they have no other means of effective resistance... and we can point out how this last effort's gone sooo well for Palestine. Israel on other hand needs to stop doing war crimes, put Bibi's corrupt ass in a fucking jail cell, and get out of the running for most authoritarian middle-eastern government. They're not in the lead - but they're not fuckin' last.
Not that hard, but that’s not enough. Social media is full of people saying exactly that and getting hounded off the platform for it.
There is no way to make a statement on this topic that will definitely not get you in trouble.
I understand organizations just choosing to say nothing.
The Onion has been predictably merciless on that front.
Haha are you serious? Israel’s government and society are in an entirely different ballpark when it comes to liberty about anything for anybody.
Mandatory service in army doing war crimes on the regular, courts falling under right-wing control because apparently that's the style of the time, constantly declaring any criticism or even the barest sympathy for Palestinians as intolerable antisemitism deserving retribution...
Just because Netanyahu hasn't had anyone sawed to pieces doesn't mean the state isn't all kinds of fucked up. Egypt's a barely functional military-run bureaucracy, and they manage to commit considerably fewer genocide-adjacent activities.
Yeah, Israel is genociding so hard and so successfully that the Arab population in Israel grows the fastest.
Are you suggesting that there is a connection between genocidal attacks on a people and their population growth? And do you really think that the peoples with the highest birth rates are doing best? Would you mind explaining how you came to this conclusion? Because I actually believe that, on the contrary, the peoples with the fewest children are doing best.
Jesus fuck, please make clear you have "birth-rates" memorized, in your argument about who's a bigot.
I don’t even know what you’re trying to tell me with that.
Good on you for keeping the oldschool Internet discussion culture alive with senseless cursing.
You want it dry?
Your argument is an irrelevant fallacy, and you should feel bad.
I am unimpressed by your tone policing.
Genocide means the killing of an ethnicity. Arab birth rates in Israel are flourishing. Hence, Israel is doing a bad job at eradicating them.
Are you aware of the fact that there are more Jewish people living on this planet than ever before? Do you really want to deny the Holocaust based on this fact?
Well, yeah, their population recovered from an actual attempt at Genocide but that is decades ago, obviously.
And that makes eradicating Palestine okay, apparently.
Everybody relax! More similar-looking brown people we born nearby, so the hundreds killed just this month do not count.
Israeli occupation of Gaza ended in 2005 and they had the opportunity of self-determination. Elections were held and terrorists won. Bra-fucking-vo. Attacks on Israel piled up so they had to build a fence around the Gaza Strip. All due to terrorist action. Why didn’t Palis oust Hamas by now?
The Palestinians elected an organization that they considered less corrupt than the Fatah. An organization that had worked hard to win the hearts of Palestinians by doing a great job in education, healthcare, and feeding of Palestinians. For many years they could do that job so convincingly by the financial support of Israel and the US. And they committed acts of violence against Israel that many people considered terrorism. While other called it a fight for freedom of the Palestinians. They got elected but the West didn’t accept the outcome of that election. And Israel refused to negotiate with the new government. I think Israel loved that outcome, because they didn’t want to negotiate anyway. And while Israel requires a Palestinian government recognizing Israel's right to exist before negotiating, it is doing everything it can to prevent the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.
"Yeah, I’ll vote for the jihad guys who have openly sworn to annihilate Israel, that’ll bring prosperity and peace for my kids."
They blockaded Gaza.
This is why there was swearing. I'm not allowed to just treat you like any normal person could face-to-face, when you do a terrible job of lying to them. Any label for your behavior might not be nice. But it's still fucking bullshit, and I need to express that exasperation.
Treating this garbage as a good-faith argument would be a lie. I refuse. You keep spitting irrelevant excuses that cover up control, bigotry, and violence. You need to fucking stop.
Fascinating that people exist who consider this train of thought sound and consistent.
Empty irony.
You don't even know what an argument would look like.
Fascinating how I still got my degrees then. Either my Alma mater made a huge mistake granting me a doctorate or random people on the Internet are full of it.
Argument from authority: also a fallacy.
Stop.
You made a general statement about me being unable to spot arguments. Of course I can, what else can I say?
In response to you ignoring an argument and spitting 'imagine thinking this!'
YOU made this an exchange of snippy nothings. Stop, go back, and address the fucking point.
I completely agree but according to the V-Dem Democracy Index from Wikipedia they have infact been the most democratic country of the middle east by a lot in 2023
Was that the metric I condemned?
It's hard to call out Hamas because Israel keeps throwing rocks at the hornet's nest. Israel has the real political and military power here, but they aren't putting in the real effort that would be needed to change the situation. Bombing civilians is just creating more extremists as kids see their parents and siblings killed by the IDF; they aren't going to grow up and say, wow, what Hamas did was awful, and I guess my family deserved to die because of that. No, they're going to hate Israel.
Israel isn't bombing civilians. Seriously, have you seen the picutres? If they wanted to hit civilians even the vastly inflated death tolls made up by Hamas would be a gross underestatement.
What they're bombing is the enemy that just murdered more than a thousand civilians. And it's Hamas terrorist who are literally guiding the bombs towards civilians.
Self immulation would be a better way to resist. They chose to give one the world's deadliest armies a reason and political cover to kill them. If Israel were ready to commit genocide (fortunately it isn't), they'd just have signed the death warrant of the Palestinian people.
'Set yourself on fire or else the military might eradicate your entire population,' says someone with negative self-awareness.
I'm saying setting themselves on fire would actually classify as resistance because it wouldn't be entirely futile. Attacking Israel is futile.
'You know what's not futile? Die in agony.'
Get out.
And what are they doing now? The only difference is that Hamas burning themselves might wouldn't involve murdering countless civilians on both sides and that it might actually help their cause.
Edit: I'm not saying they should burn themselves. What they should do is the right thing, i.e. exactly what Germany did on May 8th 1945. That's the only way out of this mess. Maybe they'll sooner or later realize that getting bombed is simply what the return of the terror they unleashed it on your neighbors. We did here in Germany.
Israel's bombing civilians indiscriminately and you're blaming the Palestinians for resisting in a way besides killing themselves. You literally suggested self immolation. You explicitly said, literally killing themselves would be less futile than violence at the border.
And you think that makes Hamas the Nazi analogue.
They aren't. Otherwise this would be over.
I cannot imagine the belief set necessary to think that's a defense.
So they've killed over a thousand people, bombed apartments to dust, demanded a whole city depopulate overnight, bombed the places those refugees were told to go, bombed the border crossings, etc., etc., etc. - and that's deliberate. That's the measured response! That's what they did on purpose, with forethought.
And you suggested those victims of collateral damage should have SET THEMSELVES ON FIRE and DIED IN PROTEST, because that would've gone better. Like they should be thankful that Israel's not, in your own words, ready to commit genocide.
This is the shit I would say as a vicious condemnation of Israel. This is damning criticism of their conduct, when they have all the land and all the power and all the money, and their victims primarily resist by throwing rocks. How in the name of god do you write this crap and still think that's positive, for Israel?
Where do you get off comparing-- "the return of the terror they unleashed it on your neighbors," meaning Palestine, terrorizing Israel?! Israel! The modern military discriminately blowing up apartments! The force you glibly suggest could end it all - "otherwise this would be over!" - with just a little killing the entire population?
If they didn't at least try to avoid hitting civilians on we'd see completely different numbers of victims. The area is densely populated. If Israel wanted to or at least didn't care about hitting civilians we'd see what we saw in German cities in WW2: firestorms and without the bunkers and air defense that Germany had back then, that would mean tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths.
The numbers are simply prove that Israel is more or less telling the truth about what they do: They aim at terrorists and unfortunately have some collateral damage because these terrorists hide behind civilians.
Yes, the balance of power is one sided. Yes, they could kill the entire population. But they haven't. That proves that - unlike Hamas - Israel isn't interested in genocide. Because that is the difference here. Hamas wants to commit genocide. So of course I'm thankful that it's Israel and not Hamas with the power. Israel is no saint but the alternative is much, much worse.
Phew yeah good thing Israel's only killed orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis, up until this one retaliatory event that retroactively justifies all that death and destruction. That's classic Good Guy behavior. Just mumble the tiniest mote of criticism and pretend the alternative, singular, is an additional order of magnitude.
Palestine is lucky Israel doesn't want the problem solved, finally.
Uh huh.