Both sides are so morally bankrupt it's disgusting.
You can condemn Hamas without defending Israel. Condemning Hamas is not anti-Islam.
this post was submitted on 25 Oct 2023
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I condemn both Hamas and the Israeli government, because they are both a bunch of murderous assholes who are responsible for atrocities.
Especially when you consider that Netanyahu has been supporting Hamas:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Sometimes I also have this silly idea that we should hold governments to a higher standard than terrorist groups when it comes to not committing atrocities considering they are supposed to have a chain of command and some rules while a terrorist group could in theory start shit again if any individual member doesn't want to stop.
I keep hearing people say that Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinian people, yet they don't want to call out Hamas. So which is it? Is calling out Hamas anti Palestinian or does Hamas not represent Palestinians? The people refusing to call out Hamas can't seem to decide.
You mean the people on Lemmy?
I'll call them out for you: Hamas is a piece of shit and needs to be removed. Apartheid needs to end.
Both things can be true at the same time.
That depends what you mean by calling out Hamas. Their terrorist actions are of course despicable but twisting every civilian victim of Israel's bombing campaign as "Hamas was using them as human shields so it is not Israel's fault" equally so.
Is calling out Hamas anti Palestinian
Who has claimed that?
She is taking the opportunity. Let's see in the European elections next year whether this is a cunning move. The (worrying to me) idea that is passing is that it's ok to be racist, provided that you aren't antisemitic. As if the only error of last century's totalitarianism was antisemitism. We're being very short sighted.
People who really think that LePen and her fascist friends wouldn't turn on the Jews eventually are bloody stupid. At the very least it would be the Jews turn when the other more easier minorities have been "dealt" with. There always needs to be an enemy and they never run out of them. The only question is when it's your turn and not if.
LFI are doing exactly that, but the whole country is shitting its collective pants over it because it sounds so much more anti-Israel than every other party's discourse.
Jesus, the irony of Le Pen sucking up to rightly freaked-out Jewish people is thick. Because she would absolutely turn on them the second she had real power.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
PARIS — Given the antisemitic pedigree of France’s far-right National Rally, it is a remarkable turn of the political tides that party leader Marine Le Pen now sees a prime electoral opportunity in pledging to protect the country’s fearful Jewish community.
The moral vacillations of France’s hard left, which is refusing to describe Hamas as a terrorist organization, have horrified French Jews, just as they face a surge in antisemitic offenses, ranging from death threats to graffiti on Jewish shops.
She can seize on a clear anti-Islamist agenda, while the extreme left relies heavily on a support base in immigrant and Muslim communities, where a robust defense of Israel would play badly.
Supporting France’s Jews against antisemitism is probably less a play for votes from the world’s third biggest Jewish community than another major step by Le Pen to try to normalize the party and break from its toxic past.
“We have a weight around our necks due to the comments by Jean-Marie Le Pen and his allies,” said a National Rally MP, who was granted anonymity to discuss sensitive issues more candidly.
“Europe is not homogenous, in some countries, we’re worried about neo-Nazis on the right, but in France and Belgium, it’s Islamist movements that are at the root of antisemitism, they kill Jews because they are Jewish,” said Dahan from the CRIF.
The original article contains 1,014 words, the summary contains 224 words. Saved 78%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Don't forget that antisemitic zionism is indeed a thing. Nazis are more than happy to court jews as long as they're not here.
Also, again, it's totally fine to condemn the atrocities commited by hamas while also condeming the atrocities commited by Israel.
How fucking hard is it to say mass-murdering civilians is bad, in general? Hamas, at best, can say they have no other means of effective resistance... and we can point out how this last effort's gone sooo well for Palestine. Israel on other hand needs to stop doing war crimes, put Bibi's corrupt ass in a fucking jail cell, and get out of the running for most authoritarian middle-eastern government. They're not in the lead - but they're not fuckin' last.
How fucking hard is it to say mass-murdering civilians is bad, in general?
Not that hard, but that’s not enough. Social media is full of people saying exactly that and getting hounded off the platform for it.
There is no way to make a statement on this topic that will definitely not get you in trouble.
I understand organizations just choosing to say nothing.
The Onion has been predictably merciless on that front.
Haha are you serious? Israel’s government and society are in an entirely different ballpark when it comes to liberty about anything for anybody.
Mandatory service in army doing war crimes on the regular, courts falling under right-wing control because apparently that's the style of the time, constantly declaring any criticism or even the barest sympathy for Palestinians as intolerable antisemitism deserving retribution...
Just because Netanyahu hasn't had anyone sawed to pieces doesn't mean the state isn't all kinds of fucked up. Egypt's a barely functional military-run bureaucracy, and they manage to commit considerably fewer genocide-adjacent activities.
Yeah, Israel is genociding so hard and so successfully that the Arab population in Israel grows the fastest.
Are you suggesting that there is a connection between genocidal attacks on a people and their population growth? And do you really think that the peoples with the highest birth rates are doing best? Would you mind explaining how you came to this conclusion? Because I actually believe that, on the contrary, the peoples with the fewest children are doing best.
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I completely agree but according to the V-Dem Democracy Index from Wikipedia they have infact been the most democratic country of the middle east by a lot in 2023
Was that the metric I condemned?
It's hard to call out Hamas because Israel keeps throwing rocks at the hornet's nest. Israel has the real political and military power here, but they aren't putting in the real effort that would be needed to change the situation. Bombing civilians is just creating more extremists as kids see their parents and siblings killed by the IDF; they aren't going to grow up and say, wow, what Hamas did was awful, and I guess my family deserved to die because of that. No, they're going to hate Israel.
Bombing civilians
Israel isn't bombing civilians. Seriously, have you seen the picutres? If they wanted to hit civilians even the vastly inflated death tolls made up by Hamas would be a gross underestatement.
What they're bombing is the enemy that just murdered more than a thousand civilians. And it's Hamas terrorist who are literally guiding the bombs towards civilians.
say they have no other means of effective resistance
Self immulation would be a better way to resist. They chose to give one the world's deadliest armies a reason and political cover to kill them. If Israel were ready to commit genocide (fortunately it isn't), they'd just have signed the death warrant of the Palestinian people.
'Set yourself on fire or else the military might eradicate your entire population,' says someone with negative self-awareness.
I'm saying setting themselves on fire would actually classify as resistance because it wouldn't be entirely futile. Attacking Israel is futile.
'You know what's not futile? Die in agony.'
Get out.
Die in agony.’
And what are they doing now? The only difference is that Hamas burning themselves might wouldn't involve murdering countless civilians on both sides and that it might actually help their cause.
Edit: I'm not saying they should burn themselves. What they should do is the right thing, i.e. exactly what Germany did on May 8th 1945. That's the only way out of this mess. Maybe they'll sooner or later realize that getting bombed is simply what the return of the terror they unleashed it on your neighbors. We did here in Germany.
Israel's bombing civilians indiscriminately and you're blaming the Palestinians for resisting in a way besides killing themselves. You literally suggested self immolation. You explicitly said, literally killing themselves would be less futile than violence at the border.
And you think that makes Hamas the Nazi analogue.
Israel’s bombing civilians indiscriminately
They aren't. Otherwise this would be over.
I cannot imagine the belief set necessary to think that's a defense.
So they've killed over a thousand people, bombed apartments to dust, demanded a whole city depopulate overnight, bombed the places those refugees were told to go, bombed the border crossings, etc., etc., etc. - and that's deliberate. That's the measured response! That's what they did on purpose, with forethought.
And you suggested those victims of collateral damage should have SET THEMSELVES ON FIRE and DIED IN PROTEST, because that would've gone better. Like they should be thankful that Israel's not, in your own words, ready to commit genocide.
This is the shit I would say as a vicious condemnation of Israel. This is damning criticism of their conduct, when they have all the land and all the power and all the money, and their victims primarily resist by throwing rocks. How in the name of god do you write this crap and still think that's positive, for Israel?
Where do you get off comparing-- "the return of the terror they unleashed it on your neighbors," meaning Palestine, terrorizing Israel?! Israel! The modern military discriminately blowing up apartments! The force you glibly suggest could end it all - "otherwise this would be over!" - with just a little killing the entire population?
If they didn't at least try to avoid hitting civilians on we'd see completely different numbers of victims. The area is densely populated. If Israel wanted to or at least didn't care about hitting civilians we'd see what we saw in German cities in WW2: firestorms and without the bunkers and air defense that Germany had back then, that would mean tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths.
The numbers are simply prove that Israel is more or less telling the truth about what they do: They aim at terrorists and unfortunately have some collateral damage because these terrorists hide behind civilians.
Yes, the balance of power is one sided. Yes, they could kill the entire population. But they haven't. That proves that - unlike Hamas - Israel isn't interested in genocide. Because that is the difference here. Hamas wants to commit genocide. So of course I'm thankful that it's Israel and not Hamas with the power. Israel is no saint but the alternative is much, much worse.
Phew yeah good thing Israel's only killed orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis, up until this one retaliatory event that retroactively justifies all that death and destruction. That's classic Good Guy behavior. Just mumble the tiniest mote of criticism and pretend the alternative, singular, is an additional order of magnitude.
Palestine is lucky Israel doesn't want the problem solved, finally.
Uh huh.
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