Translation:
Essen's mayor Thomas Kufen (CDU) reacts with horror to a demonstration in his city on Friday evening. 3,000 people, including many Islamists, marched through the Ruhr metropolis.
Essen's mayor Thomas Kufen (CDU) reacted with outrage and incomprehension to an anti-Israel demonstration that marched through the Ruhr metropolis on Friday evening. Several of the approximately 3,000 participants chanted slogans and held up posters calling for a "Khilafah" (caliphate) in Germany. The three-hour procession on the edge of the city center was accompanied by 450 police officers and observed by state security.
According to the Essen police, the demonstration was registered by a private individual. However, the main organizer was apparently the “Generation Islam” group, which security experts consider to be part of the pan-Islamist movement “Hizb ut-Tahrir” (HuT) . HuT has been banned in Germany since 2003. The main speaker at the final rally in Essen was the activist Ahmad Tamim, the head of “Generation Islam.” The Islamic scholar Ahmad Omeirate told WAZ that Tamim was “using the Middle East conflict for mobilization and radicalization.”
Mayor Kufen regretted on Saturday morning that "Islamists, anti-democrats and Jew-haters" were allowed to parade through Essen protected by the freedom of assembly guaranteed by the Basic Law: "That is difficult to bear." The CDU politician, who was the North Rhine-Westphalia state government's integration officer from 2005 to 2010, called for consequences: "The Office for the Protection of the Constitution must take a closer look at Hizb ut-Tahrir's splinter and successor groups. Bans must be an option."
The demonstrators shouted slogans in Arabic and German on Friday evening. Posters condemned the Israeli military operation in Gaza ("Stop the genocide") after the terrorist attack by the Palestinian Hamas, and one sign read: "German raison d'état calls for the killing of children." The organizers initially used loudspeakers to remind people of the police requirement that no participant should question Israel's right to exist. The tip-off was met with loud boos from the crowd.
At the beginning of the march, participants were also asked over loudspeakers to separate men and women. So it happened that most of the female demonstrators marched through the city behind the male participants. They repeatedly shouted "Allahu akbar" ("God is great") and held up signs calling for the unity of all Muslim believers and the establishment of a caliphate in Germany. Individual demonstrators stuck their right index fingers in the air; This gesture is intended to symbolize belief in the "one God", but is also seen as a symbol of the terrorist organization "Islamic State". The design of several black and white banners and flags also resembled depictions of IS.
The Essen police announced on Saturday that they would subsequently analyze the Friday demonstration and examine its “criminal relevance”. It turned out that the motive for a pro-Palestine meeting was only a pretext. Instead, the organizers held a religious event.
This is exactly why I am against Islam. Muslim people aren't all bad people, obviously, but Islam in numbers is bad. It always leads to fascism. It also leads to more muslims dying by suicide bombers.
The best environment for muslims (and women, LGBTQ people, immigrants, anyone who isn't a muslim) is one where they are not in control, where they live in a secularist society as a minority and are allowed the 'freedom to practice any religion' where extremists are not given a space to take power or oppress people.
I don't believe these 3000 individuals faithfully represent the 5+ milion Muslims who live in Germany nor the almost 2 bilion Muslims in the world.
What I do belive they represent is violent religious extremism. And that is not limited to Muslims. You got Buddhists shooting people in Myanmar, Jews shooting people in the west bank, Hindu stoning people in India and even 1st world American Christians shooting on plant parenthood clinics...
We should be vigillant whenever a religions doctrine gets into conflict with what we understand are basic human rights. I am not confident we are. I am not comparing PIS to idk Hamas - but how many women have died in Poland due to their anti-abortion laws and how is that acceptable?
What is the point if saying that you don't compare and than compare anyway?
Sure there is also conservative Christianity that takes influence on society. The difference is it went trough reformation and there are more liberal (mainstream) versions of it. While one of the few (the only one I know about) liberal mosque in Germany is closing down due to threats.
Sorry. By that I meant that even here, in our "safe Europe" our religious belives sometimes reach beyond what I believe should be allowed in a healthy society. Only the scale/method is wildly different - such that it "does not stand comparison".
If the scale is so wildly different, what is the point of bringing it up?
They just explained it to you if you cared to listen.
I asked a different question, it's called conversation - you should try it one day.
Modern American Christian politicians beg to differ. They very much would like to see the bible placed next to the constitution.
I agree we shouldn't let them of course.
Reading is a useful skill.
As is trying to understand the other's point. How is banning abortion for everyone on religious grounds reformed? The new speaker of the house said there can be no legitimate government that's not based on the bible.
You know what reformation was?
Not sure why you are down-voted but Islam is as any other religion rather political and therefore influences society. Modern Islam is rather conservative and anti-democratic in its' core - so a big proportion of Muslim population is problematic if one wants to live in a modern, humanist and democratic society.
One solution is to create a more modern, European version of Islam - which is rather possible since Islam is rather decentralized.
You haven't been to the USA or to any European country before the 80s to see that Christianity can be just as political and just as conservative.
So how many liberal, democratic, majority Muslim countries are out there? And yes conservative Christianity is also pushing for a less liberal society - the difference is, Christianity went through reformation creating more liberal versions -peacefully coexisting together (for most part), the only liberal mosque in Germany got closed due to threats.
Yep just look at for example Indonesia where foreign Islamic influence from the Middle East has slowly gained a foothold in society and politics since the fall of the dictator Suharto. Indonesia is regressing and is introducing more draconian laws clearly pushed by conservative Muslims and it’s secular status is nowadays merely a facade.
If you give the situation a little more context, you can see the west's hands in this as well, similar to Palestine and other former colonies. After being brutally exploited by western powers, there were many secular and moderate resistance movements. Because they were socialist and considered a threat to the western dominance they were either ruthlessly bombed, like Laos and Vietnam, or the west supported dictators like Suharto, because they promised to kill all the communists for them. Even though the dictator is gone now, it will take many years for a moderate generation to grow again.
The exact same is happening in Palestine. The west supports Israel's ethnic cleansing, meaning that the only resistance that is left is groups like Hamas.
Will never happen when rich Arabs keep pumping millions into rural areas to promote their hateful version of Islam
Palestine wasn't a colony.
First by the Ottoman Empire, then by the British empire, now by Israel
They were occupied by the Brits not colonised.
For context, this was a demonstration of 3,000 people ‘several of which’ apparently called for a kaliphate.
They’re a tiny idiotic minority of the Muslims living in Germany and you’re ‘this is exactly why I’m against Islam’ - which of course is exactly the response the radicals are hoping to trigger.
How is democracy going in Muslim majority countries? I can help you: Indonesia and Pakistan.
I mean, democracy isn’t doing too well in lots of countries at the moment. India, China, Russia, North Korea, and arguably strugglijng in a large Christian near-theocracy, I can think of.
I absolutely have a problem with fundamentalist Islam, but luckily fundamentalism isn’t ubiquitous. The big problem is where you have the toxic combination of any regious fundamentalism with populist nationalism.
These kind of regimes frequently seem to seem into power where moderate/secular parties have been seen as ineffective or corrupt or both - see how Hamas took over from Fatah/the Palestinian Authority in Gaza.
So again: How is democracy going in Muslim majority countries?
And I'm not claiming that Islam is the only thing threatening democracy. I would not say it's even the worst threat - but it's there, not sure why anyone who is interested in a liberal society would deny it. By the way - before you ask, Catholicism is also a threat to liberal society.
How is this relevant for Germany?
It shows that there is a general problem with modern Islam and liberal democratic society. While we have several Organisation in Germany promoting Islam, with rather questionable funding.
The arguement remains absurd. Going with this logic, any problem ina democratic country would be a problem with all democratic countries.
So European countries would have problems with mass shootings, because the US has them. European countries would be commiting massive war crimes because the US and Israel do. Health care would be in shambles everywhere because of the US. All countries would be poor because of the less economically developed Balkan countries and so on.
You cannot say Problem with X1 in place Y is the same as Problem with X2 in place Z. The surrounding conditions make X1 and X2. different.
You misunderstood my logic.
My statement would be more like: a problem occurring in most democratic countries, would be indicative of a systematic problem with democracy.
Interesting. Would you call it the "Muslim problem" ?
No, I would describe it like I described it, to avoid miscommunication. Why would I use populist language?
You said there was a general problem with Muslims that you saw? If it's general, and attributable, why would you not call it that? Are there other larger problems that you see with Muslims that you think are even more attributable and deserving of the title?
If you could only read:
I'm explicitly talking about the ideology not the people. Care to explain why is it so important to you to put specific words in my mouth, rather than participate in a conversation - by like stating your own opinion instead of this cheap rhetorical dancing?
Sure, let me redress. You're saying there's a problem between Islam and Democracy correct? So what kind of solutions do you think there are to that incompatibility? Is this an Islam problem, or a religion in government problem?
I personally don't think religion has any place in government. So that would be the more existential issue for me, in terms of compatibility.
I'm saying more explicitly: a problem between modern dominant interpretation of Islam and liberal societies (democracy by proxy). There is nothing inherently antidemocratic in Islam or any other Religion since they are all open to rather liberal interpretations, like shown time and time through out history.
As I wrote elsewhere, one solution would be creating European, more liberal Islam version. But I also won't claim that I have figured it all out. Recognizing problems, figuring out solutions and implementing them are all different, even so related shoes.
Those are two different things. Problematic for different, related reasons.
Religion does not have to be directly involved in government to act upon society. As an ideology it drives decisions of people - not last through societal pressure on decision maker. Look no further then Poland for an example.
So care to answer my question, for a change:
?
Sure, was just genuinely curious if you'd call it that! Though it may come as a surprise I've encountered similar language quite a lot lately and wanted to gauge your stance.
I appreciate the thorough reply. Genuinely.
Fair enough, that's why I tried to chose my word carefully.
No it doesn't! It barely makes a supposition for Indonesia and Pakistan, without proving anything, and it means absolutely nothing for Germany.
Sure, if you think modern Islam goes well with liberal society - I would like you to elaborate.
There's millions of muslims living in Germany and you're jumping to conclusions based on a demonstration held by 3000 people and two countries that have nothing in common with Germany.
I base my conclusion on the modern dominant idiological interpretation of Islam. It's rather anti liberal at it's core.
Having some experience with Indonesia: it's not perfect but the Indonesian democracy is currently more stable less threatened than the US
Are Muslims in Indonesia pushing for a less liberal society? And yes, USA have also a problem with conservative Christianity pushing for a less liberal society. But like I mentioned before - Christianity went though reformation and we have more liberal versions, for most part, peacefully coexist together. While the only (to my knowledge) liberal mosque in Germany closes down due to threads.
What an incredibly one-sided argument. Any conservative, no matter the religion is against LGTBQ. Look at America, or any conservative christian political party in Europe. Heck, even conservative atheists are often against LGTBQ.
But separate from that, even conservative muslims deserve to defend themselves against colonialism and genocide.
The same holds true for any radical group and currently Germany is radicalizing itself into fascism again, so you would need to make the same argument that it is best for Germans if there is no Germans in power in Germany.
The Terrorists try to drive a permanent wedge in societies AND between countries AND between religions.
You are a prime example of how excellent those Terrorists have achieved their goals.
I don't need terrorism to be afraid of a religion that worships a child rapist and hates atheists, LGBTQI people and women. The wedge is in the religion. At least with Christianity there are some groups who are more progressive.
That's concerning... Who would you consider the most existential terrorist threat at the moment and why? Do you not believe there should be a separation of church and state? Is that an exclusively terrorist goal? What is a key wedge issue these terrorists use (so that we can all be more aware!) and how do they make it permanent?
Keep your bad faith arguments to yourself and get lost.
Where is there any bad faith there? If you don't feel like talking that's fine but at least flesh out your opinion to demonstrate it's validity.