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It seems to me that they're planning on squeezing the people from the north into the south, then closing off the north from any return. This is consistent with a plan of annexing and depopulating Gaza.
If so, this would be ethnic cleansing. This strategy appears to be genocide.
One issue the IDF has been working with for a while is the sheer amount of tunneling by Hamas. There is dense housing right on top of the tunnels. Destroying the tunnels can lead to the above buildings collapsing, as well as the damage caused by any explosives.
Will they annex and depopulate Gaza? I hope not. That's just going to create another generation of fighters itching for revenge. Grievances outlast Hamas, and they will likely find a form. That said, maybe a single state solution will be the best form of government, as long as Palestinians, Jewish Israelis, and other groups are guaranteed equal rights. The half-ass "two state" attempt right now isn't working.
I guarantee, if they actually offered that nobody would complain. But they won't, to "preserve Israel's Jewish character". See: Their rejection of Palestinian right of return.
Hell, if they were willing to do that Israel wouldn't exist and we'd just have had a unified Palestine in 1948.
They want to keep Gaza and the West Bank under military rule until they can fully depopulate them and create Lebensraum.
you're ignoring the fact that the Palestinian Arabs do not want a two state solution, and the majority of them want to genocide the Jews.
so where do you get this from exactly? because the PA has been working toward a two-state solution, while the Israeli government has been strengthening Hamas to undermine the PA's attempt at getting a two-state solution passed, and yes, Netanyahu has said this openly, for years
The Palestinian's under the PLO had a charter to completely reject any two state solution until 1994, and two state negotiations barely lasted a couple years before violence broke out again.
So no, the Palestinian Arabs do not, and have never wanted a two state solution.
yet the PLO was dissolved and replaces by the PA in accordance with the Camp David agreements, of course Israel conveniently forgot they existed, so for about 10 years the Palestinians tried to do the whole peaceful negotiation bit, and got jack shit, until a terror group backed by Bibi won the civil war in Gaza, putting an end to the negotiations entirely.
so I ask if the Palestinians when't interested in a two-state solution, where is the PLO?
The PA also did not want a two state solution, they wanted a one state solution that they controlled.
what exactly are you talking about? are you just repeating stuff you heard that matches your notion of "all Muslims are evil and want to kill jews"?
None of their negotiations gave Jews a right to the land. And Palestinians tried a total of 2 years of peaceful negotiations, not 10.
And no, not all Muslims are bad, but the leadership in Palestine and Israel have never wanted the other religion to exercise any control in the region, and pretending Palestinians are completely innocent is idiotic.
ok, so first off, what exactly are you basing your "worked towards a two-state solution" on? because it definitely has nothing to do with any of the treaties or actions to radicalize said treaties by the Palestinian people.
And through your ignorance, purposeful or not, you straight up lie about the Palestinian government's attempts at a two-state solution, fucking Netanyahu literally supported Hamas to undermine the two state efforts of the PA, what you claim just doesn't match with any facts.
The PA only made efforts at peace for about 2 years, I ma basing it on that. 2 years out of the 75 that Israel has existed has had Palestine make legitimate attempts at a 2 state solution, not just a delaying tactic until they start attacking again.
And Netanyahu is a shit-sack as well.
The onion did a bit about ten years ago on the Palestine-Israel conflict, reporting:
“Israeli and Palestine leaders have shown they see eye to eye in nearly every facet of the proposed solution, including such provisions as: seizing all territory, watching the opposition burn in righteous fire, and building a unified nation on the corpses of their enemy. Yet, they still haven’t come any closer to putting a stop to the conflict”
Kind of sums it up.
Uh... The PLO had a lot of national support for a hot minute there, until Netenyahu just up and shut down the Oslo accords. That's what made terror as popular in Palestine as it is now; there's simply no other means of resistance left to them.
You mean the PLO who's second charter was:
"Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit"
They weren't exactly fans of a two state solution either.
Uh... They then recognized Israel as part of the Oslo accords so... Yeah. There goes your excuse.
exactly. Israel is currently creating hamas 2.0 - you think all of those dead children won’t be avenged by their parents? or the dead parents won’t be avenged by their children?? their approach is and has always been to completely destroy palestinians, this was their opportunity.
It's because it's half-assed, by Netanyahu. He won't allow Palestine state to be formed, as well as will not return the West Bank and evict the illegal settlement, but instead either allow the settler to stay or carve that land for himself. He also want Palestine to demilitarised. A country without military is a sitting duck, so it's understandable no one wanted that.
No, he doesn't want Palestine. More moderate/leftist Israelis want a demilitarized Palestine. The Israeli far right just wants them off the map for their lebensraum.
He doesn't want the state Palestine to exists and the people who identified as Palestinian. If he doesn't want Palestine(the land) he will retreat from West Bank. Instead, he continue to occupy it and illegally build more settler there.
He doesn't want a Palestine, he wants it to be greater Israel or whatever.
Netanyahu basically attempts to destroy the 2 state solution by putting more Israelis to the west bank area. That’s quite terrible, I have to admit.
he also aided Hamas to undermine the two-state solution
May I ask about how he helped out Hamas? I don't know about that.
What I know is that there is illegal occupation in East Jerusalem and Bibi also actively supports life of Jews behind in wall. This is illegal under the international law and also Israeli judiciary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements?wprov=sfti1#Status_of_the_territories).
So I could go on about how and why (funding, assistance in getting rid of less radical secular opposition, the purposeful not targeting in military campaigns etc...), but I figure I could just let some of the oldest newspapers in the region do it for me, after all why reinvent the wheel.
like Harratz
or the Times of Israel
considering that Israel hasn't been interested in the two-state solution and has been working hard to undermine it, of course it didn't work
I agree with this 100%. I think it needs to get said more, and more: Palestinians deserve full civil rights including the freedom of movement throughout a single state covering all of historic Palestine.
What do you mean "all of historic Palestine"? Palestine was never a state. Do you mean that Palestine should replace whole Israel? Where would the Izraelis go then?
This wasn't meant to be a political statement. Historic Palestine is a term for what is technically known as Mandate Palestine (or according to Wikipedia, Mandatory Palestine). This was the region defined as Palestine by the League of Nations between 1920 and is a convenient way to refer to all the area that is contested by Israel and Palestinians.
I'm sorry if it was unclear. I meant that Israel should incorporate the occupied territories formally and legally, and afford the residents full citizenship in the combined state so that both Israelis and Palestinians can live an work anywhere in the combined region. That's what the "One-State Solution"means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution
The region was called philistia since the 10th century bc. Why are we so focused on the modern nation state, a concept that didn’t really exist until the last couple hundred years?
That land has always been referred to by their population. Philistia, land of the philistines. Then the name morphed into Palestine. It’s always been Palestine.
I just want to point to my response to @samokosik@lemmynsfw.com . This wasn't meant to be a political statement, I was just using a formal term to refer to the entire region that includes Israel and the occupied territories.
No, they're just going to kill everyone in the north then turn around and attack the south, pressuring Egypt into opening its borders and displacing the rest of the population into the Sinai Peninsula. The blackout is back, so they can kill indiscriminately now.
Then use Gaza as a neutral zone, something like North and South Korea have to cut off all ties.
Then it's just a matter of time to do the same to the West Bank.
They're already lobbying the EU and US to put pressure on Egypt to give up the Sinai peninsula (like it's so normal to give up an entire fucking peninsula). That's why Sisi said Europe should take in Gazans themselves if they care so much about human rights.
You know about Netanyahu's plans we heard about a few days ago and everybody shrugged it off as a 'theory/study? This is exactly what's happening.
This also explains why they don't care about civilian casualties. There will be no Gaza anymore, and the more Palestinians they kill right now, the less future terrorists for them (their opinion).
they just want an excuse to retake the peninsula
Israel doesn't give a shit about Gaza. Gaza is a distraction. The real deal is the West Bank were the settlers/militia are being armed by Israel. There are already videos of Ben Gvir giving assault weapons to the settlers and riling them up. They are the ones who will commit the genocide in Israel's behalf. Shit is already going down. The militia is depopulating villages, commuting murder and arson, all while the IDF just stands and watches. But the media only shows Gaza. Even Biden already realized what happened and is shitting his britches realizing he supported what is about to happen. This are the first stages of a genocide.
they want both Gaza AND Palestine, that's why Netanyahu was supporting Hamas, to use them against the PA in the west bank
I agree with you. I'm not sure where we're in disagreement.
I don't know the precise planning. I'm guessing Israel would prefer to focus on depopulating Gaza first, and let the Settlers terrorize the West Bank until they're ready to reallocate troops. Then I think that once they've got secure control of Gaza, they'll wait for an opportunistic terror attack in the West Bank as pretense to redirect the troops. But I think they want to fully conquer Gaza first to avoid dividing their forces.
Like I said, though, I think we all agree on the overall plan, we just don't know the exact battle plan. But Genocide is the intent.
I don't think we'll see the army blooding their hands in the West Bank. We're going to see major atrocities there (executions, mass graves, etc) but it will be by the armed militia (aka settlers). The army will just observe to keep plausible deniability.
Please, I'm eating...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/30/world/middleeast/west-bank-settlers-palestinians-violence.html
This was my thought as well. No one will ever be allowed back in that city. It will either be a military base or a wasteland for decades.
It does make sense in terms of working in a box for military awareness of enemy combatants. No expert, but that is something we've seen before.