this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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Edit 8 days later: Wow, a lot of people really like using their free speech rights to advocate against free speech...Weird.
If you don't support the free speech rights of the people you hate the most, then you don't support free speech at all.
All censorship is bad. One day it's naughty racial words and then the next day religious zealots can lock people up for saying "god" in the wrong context.
Dead wrong. The nazis will not be nice to you and respect your free speech because you respect theirs. Ever. They will lock you up regardless. This is not an even playing field.
Being locked up is a pretty charitable assumption about what will happen given the Nazis' history and current rhetoric.
Doesn't mean you don't support free speech. When I join a chatroom and someone is just typing shit over and over trying to get a rise and I ignore/block them, I don't agree that I'm against free speech, I'm against harassment.
False equivalence. Online you can choose not to see things you don't like. Online, no one can force you to look at things that offend you....at least not yet.
Which is why all the censorship on social media is so ridiculous. And if someone is DM'ing you to harass you...That's not free speech anymore that's harassment and there's already laws about that.
Yep, this is where people frequently mistake censorship for outlawing certain behaviours.
Someone can stand on a street corner and shout all day about how they hate specific races, how they feel they're a blight on society, etc.
Distasteful shit, for sure, but people can walk away, ignore them.
That's what freedom of speech is, and it should absolutely be protected.
When those people cross the line into acting on those things - harassment, intimidation, assault, worse - that's a crime that should be prosecuted.
That... is so not true in many states of the world.
Yeah but the point is that it's your choice to block out the harassment - nobody is doing that on your behalf without asking you.
How to tell me youβre a cis white male without telling me youβre a cis white male.
All censorship is bad?
Death threats, shouting fire in a crowded theatre, child porn?
Beyond that, protecting the freedom of speech of the likes of Nazis, who would use that freedom to harass and intimidate, consolidate power, then take away all freedoms, and commit a string of genocides is anti-freedom.
It's the paradox of tolerance - this shit is a social contract - you get freedoms on the condition you don't fuck with the freedoms of others.
You're confusing freedom of ideas and speech with freedom of action.
Censorship is about limiting freedom of thought and speech.
As much as I think it's a waste of mental energy, you have the absolute right to wish someone dead. Acting on that thought is where the line is drawn, and crossing that line is where it becomes a crime.
There's a very distinct difference.
I think you're confused about thought - it's got nothing to do with anything I said.
Making threats, triggering a stampede, downloading CSAM, and participating in a group whose objective is are all actions with tangible consequences.
What's the utility in protecting these things? As far as organised crime organisations go, what's more serious than genocide?
You're making my point. Banning these things is not the same thing as censorship.
Stopping people from saying something, and literally censoring CSAM isn't censorship - got it.
You're oversimplifying. What we're talking about is censorship that attempts to control what people think and the freedom to express their thoughts.
Neither of the things you just mentioned could be considered the free expression of thought or speech - they are acts that result in the harm of others, and should be prosecuted as such.
Causing a stampede by shouting fire in a crowded theatre is not the same thing as expression of free speech.
Likewise, as disgusting as it is, having paedophilic thoughts is not a crime in and of itself, but searching for, distributing, and downloading CSAM are most certainly criminal acts. And rightly so.
I don't know what you're trying to control for, but I'm trying to stop genocidal groups from consultating power. You've got nothing to contribute other than hoping there's someone left to hold the genocidal dipshits to account after they've committed that genocide.
You're stopping that expression - it's censorship. It might be censorship you like, but you can't pretend it's not censorship.
Again, this is squarely within the definition of censorship. I don't know why you'd raise the legality in a discussion of morality - surely you don't think legalising genocide would make it acceptable.
Banning membership of a group that aims to oppress and kill huge groups of people is a pro-freedom move.
Please don't make me put a dictionary in front of you.
"Freedom of expression of opinion" would be a more fitting term, as it is called in most languages. Death threads and shouting fire in a crowded theater are not opinions...
Censorship of any opinion is bad.
Where does stochastic terrorism and incitement of violence sit with you? How about the Nazi dipshits loudly expressing their "thought" while armed and standing in front of an event at a library? Jan 6 propagandists whipping the morons into an insurrectionist frenzy?
Expression of thought in the kinds of ways in talking about have very tangible consequences.
I think x group are subhuman trash that deserve to be exterminated - they've stolen everything from us, and need to pay for that. They'll be raping children at this event - it's our patriotic duty to stop them!