this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2023
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[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 31 points 11 months ago (32 children)

"No True Scotsman" is when you attempt to protect your generalized statement by placing counterexamples outside the bounds of the statement. But in the case of Christianity, people who don't love are self-selecting out of that group by the words of the founder himself, who said "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

I'm not saying they aren't a Christian, and the OP isn't saying that either. The person who is hateful is saying that they aren't a Christian, as surely as a person who kicks puppies for fun is saying that they aren't a dog lover. They could swear up and down later that they can't be a puppy kicker because they're a dog lover, but the fact that they're kicking puppies self-selects them out of that group.

[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago (29 children)

Incidentally, the wording of the fallacy here is an important point to observe. The qualifications for being a Scotsman are that someone is geographically or genetically connected to Scotland; and while there are fiddly gray areas at the edges, no one can say that you're not a Scotsman because of a thing you do because the qualification is a connection to a place.

But the qualifications for being a Christian are explicitly a thing you do. Well, a thing you do and a thing you believe, but those two things are inherently linked by the fact that the object of belief (Jesus) commands the action (love).

[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (18 children)

The qualification for being a Christian is that you believe in Christ. That is literally it. You can be the worst person ever and be a Christian.

In fact, most Christians believe that everyone is a sinner, so being horrible is basically expected and accepted. You just need to repent eventually.

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

No, being horrible is not expected or accepted. The Puritans (read: Evangelicals) like to interpret it that way, and in fact they do that because it absolves them of personal responsibility. "Well, I don't do that one really terrible thing, therefore I can feel secure and not worry about my behavior."

In reality, sin just means error, imperfection. It's an acknowledgement that no human can be perfect the way that God is perfect, no matter what. The correct response to this should be ongoing self-evaluation, humility, and caution against slipping into the many easy faults of humanity. We should all be repenting constantly because obviously we make mistakes all the time, and all we can do is keep trying to be better, do better. This is what you find in classical literature like Thomas Kempis's The Imitation of Christ.

If you see someone (and I know this is common) running around claiming absolute security in their righteousness with God, then you're seeing a person who is quite literally actively sinning.

The knock on effect of this whole situation is that Christians who don't believe they know all and speak for God (another sin: taking the Lord's name in vain) don't get public attention because we don't run around shouting at people about our religious beliefs.

[–] CosmicCleric@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It’s an acknowledgement that no human can be perfect the way that God is perfect, no matter what.

Does the scriptures speak towards why God is perfect, and why we're imperfect?

Specifically, if we're made in God's image, then doesn't that mean God is not perfect either, or that we were purposely made imperfectly?

[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Does the scriptures speak towards why God is perfect, and why we're imperfect?

This is a close cousin to the problem of pain. Many smarter people than I have debated both around and around for centuries, and come no nearer an answer than when they started. The Bible gives us a how, and a who, but not a why. Honestly I wish there was more, but alas.

[–] CosmicCleric@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

A well written response, thank you.

[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Thank you. I wish I had more, but I won't pretend like I have answers I don't.

[–] CosmicCleric@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

but I won’t pretend like I have answers I don’t.

Truth, above all.

[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

And who created this definition that you're referencing? You speak as if it's the authority on what is and isn't Christian.

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'm not debating. Just sharing what I've been taught.

[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Ah, well, you were taught that by non-christians.

[–] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

Kempis is a very storied and well-respected theologian from right before the Reformation. He's looked upon fondly by the Anglicans, Methodists, and Jesuits alike. He's about as Christian as they come, and the fruit of his belief is abundant.

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Thomas Kempis is very much Christian. There are a variety of Christian authors in this vein. Modern American Evangelicalism doesn't comprise the entirety of religious thinking.

[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

They're Christian according to whom? To them?

No, they're not Christian at all.

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Again, I'm not debating. But I do find the irony interesting.

And who created this definition that you're referencing? You speak as if it's the authority on what is and isn't Christian.

[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I feel like you're missing the irony..

You cannot say who is or isn't Christian any more than I can. Just because you reference those YOU see as an authority didn't make you correct. It simply moves the problem one step to the left. Those people also can't say who is or isn't Christian.

There is no metric by which you can measure who is a Christian. At best you can say that some people don't act as you would expect Christians to act. But that's just your option, and says more about your beliefs than them.

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 3 points 11 months ago

No, they're not Christians at all.

I'm just pointing out that you're not being consistent.

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