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this post was submitted on 01 Jan 2024
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I think the cost to replace the battery is an issue.
You replace the battery of an EV just about as often as you replace the engine block in an ICE car. Both do happen . . . but very, very infrequently.
That doesn’t sound right. I’ve got 200,000 miles on my 2015 Passat TDI, and expect another 100,000 easily with minimal repair/maintenance cost.
What’s the service life of the battery of a ten year old EV? The electric motor should be almost indestructible, but I have serious doubts that the battery capacity will still be reasonable after the same amount of time, even if you baby it.
I'm on my 3rd EV . . and none of them have been a Tesla. I am FAR from a Tesla/Musk fanboy . . .but they do release the exact data you are asking about. Here you go . . 12% degradation after 200,000 miles.
https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/
Roughly speaking, EV's lose range at a similar rate that ICE engines lose horsepower.
https://carbuzz.com/news/10-reasons-why-engines-lose-horsepower-over-time
But a 10 year old Tesla is worth much more than a 10 year old BMW . . .
https://ark-invest.com/articles/analyst-research/ev-batteries-value/
Here is a Nissan Leaf used as a taxi . . .100,000 miles with no noticeable battery degradation . . .
https://www.speakev.com/threads/c-c-taxis-100-000-mile-nissan-leaf-full-battery-included.8804/
There's not a ton of data on older EVs so it's kind of hard get a clear picture on their longevity. I know they're constantly improving and I'll eventually get one, just not today 🤷🏻.
I cannot disagree about being wary of Tesla . . I certainly am. Here's an article about data from 6,300 EV's from 12 manufactures. Also includes a cool graphing tool . . . https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/8-lessons-about-ev-battery-health-from-6300-electric-cars/ Graphing the data: https://storage.googleapis.com/geotab-sandbox/ev-battery-degradation/index.html
As for my own EV's . . I was an early adopter with the 24kWh Nissan Leaf - only had about 65 miles of "real world" range. Didn't keep that long and traded it for a VW eGolf . . . 125 "real world" miles. Had that for several years . . .but traded it early in 2023 for a VW ID4. With 300+ miles, I no longer think about range. None of them had/have more than 30,000 miles . . .and I never noticed any degradation at all. The impact of cold weather is a MUCH more more noticeable issue!!
That's still at max, 6 years of data. Am I reading that right? But, to be fair there's no indication of a dramatic drop off, at worst that data is incomplete.
I wouldn't be worried about buying a brand new EVs. My problem is that I exclusively buy 3-5 year old cars because that's the most cost effective way to buy them. So if I bought a 5 year old EV and owned it for another 5 years it's a 10 year old EV which is the very edge of the data is be able to find. That kind of unknown is a bit unsettling along with some other personal use case issues.
Thank you for the info though.
A few things to casually point out:
EV batteries are mandated by law to have an 8 year, 100K mile warranty. It's fair that you'd want it to last significantly longer, but if these things were built to go kaput immediately after with very little buffer from the warranty period, you're risking a lot of "below average" batteries having to be replaced under warranty - not to mention the reputation of these companies being absolutely shot as they ramp up EV production if they all went out immediately after.
Most modern EV batteries are built with a battery management system. Basically a heating and cooling system and such that you don't see in consumer electronics very much, meant to keep the battery system happy and healthy. The biggest exception to this is the Nissan Leaf, which is based on painfully outdated designs that never really improved from when they first came out almost 15 years ago. Many of those cars have cooked batteries and you would be right to be concerned about it.
You don't think the cost to replace an engine or transmission are an issue?
Do you realize batteries are typically made up of several replaceable "cells". Like by the time you need a new one there will be several affordable third party options that will also increase your range.
Last I checked an engine and transmission rebuild combined cost less than replacing just the batteries on an EV. An ICE might need a rebuild every 20+ years but, we don't even have 20 years of EV data to look at to compare.
No, I don't follow EVs super close. What brands allow this? What third party batteries can I buy and how much do they cost and how do they compare to OEM batteries?
Depends on which ones you buy and when.
It's very easy to look at 10+ year old batteries and extrapolate.
That's what we call a "loaded question". There's all kinds of companies.
How much does it cost to replace an EV battery on average?
There aren't a ton of 10+ year old EVs is my problem. 10 years ago EV were still a pretty niche thing. If you have that kind of info I'd love to take a look though.
I definitely wouldn't call that a loaded question. How do you figure that it is?
It should be better but Tesla has been making it worse.
The Model Y has a structural battery pack. That is the battery is integral to the car, and filled with an almost impossible to remove foam. It is unrepairable and un replaceable. Musk has said when the battery dies, you scrap the entire car and they recycle the lithium from the scrap.
You're conflating Tesla with "EVs". Simply don't buy a Tesla if that's what you want.
Given Tesla's market share, your claim that easily replaced batteries is "typical" isn't accurate. A large percentage isn't replaceable so it's something consumers should consider when choosing a brand.
Tesla is one of dozens of brands. So no.
Yes but we weren't discussing "choosing a brand", we were discussing EVs.
Tesla is 50% of all EV's sold. So, yes.
That's the point! You presented "swap a new battery" as obvious to the the OP when it's not obvious. You have to first pick a brand that allows that. Model Y was first with structural battery but others like Volvo and BMW are coming soon.
Right so then "EVs"= "Tesla"? That's the argument you want to go with?
I didn't present anything as obvious. Just a matter of fact.
...which is easy enough?
[Citation needed]
I specifically DIDN'T say that! You said this:
You didn't qualify that with "only if you buy a model that doesn't have a structural battery."
Volvo and BMW are coming soon.
https://www.sae.org/news/2023/01/bmw-future-batteries---ulrich
https://www.just-auto.com/news/volvo-plans-to-make-battery-pack-part-of-body-structure/?cf-view
GM too:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/understanding-structural-ev-batteries-2021-07-23/
Yes that's exactly my point.
That's how batteries are made today. They're still perfectly serviceable. Tesla's batteries aren't serviceable because they're filled with impenetrable foam.
So your argument has been that you agreed with me the entire time? Ok.