this post was submitted on 24 Jul 2023
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It's not so strange is it? It's not like most people feel comfortable around trans people. It took a very long time before even black people were treated normally.
I don't actually like the term phobia either. People are not "irrationally afraid" . They just prefer hanging out with people they are used to.
Someone recently killed another person because they thought they were trans (they weren't) I would definitely call that irrationally afraid. Maaaaybe you could put it up as an extreme case but shit like that does happen. Trans people are afraid for their lives my dude.
I understand. Isn't that even more of a reason to connect to people here?
Should we just not talk to them? Leave them alone so they don't get scared by our comments?
I would rather see them as part of the community like anyone else.
No.
Transphobia, homophobia, racism, misogyny, and other hate-driven viewpoints do not thrive in darkness and get disinfected by sunlight. They thrive by being promoted and normalized when people have the opportunity to be hateful in public.
These are not intellectually assumed positions. They’re not something that can be defeated by debate. The publishing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion does not contribute to the elimination of anti-semitism - it fosters it. It’s not like someone publishes Protocols and Jews cry out “At last we can debate whether or not we’re engaged in a plot to destroy civilization!” Trust me on that one.
I'm arguing that Transphobia is not hate driven, not for the majority of normal people anyway. They just don't feel comfortable and wants to avoid trans people because of that.
It's human nature to want to avoid situations that makes us uncomfortable. That being said, of course there is a minority of haters. But it's far from being the majority. The majority don't even want to deal with it and they just avoid it.
And I would welcome if trans people would start joining conversations like this one without assuming that everyone is out to hurt them.
I've been following this thread and it's been your comments that I need to remove. I applaud your willingness to have the discussion and learn but this is not the place. I can't mod this discussion enough to keep people safe and it's dreadfully off topic. I don't know where the best place is to have this conversation but it's not here.
I know I'm being heavy handed here. This is such a sensitive topic and I am trying to err on the side of keeping people safe. If there was a better way to handle it, I'm open to the discussion.
Substitute a race-based term for trans in your statement - that “normal” people don’t feel comfortable around black people because they just want to avoid them - but it’s not racism.
You might not feel comfortable around terms that have a specific meaning - like transphobia - but you should at least recognize that you’re redefining them to make yourself feel okay about them. What you’re describing is, in fact, transphobia. It is exactly analogous to feeling uncomfortable around black people but not wanting to label it racism.
You make a good point but I don't agree it's transphobia still.
We pick people to be around from a number of reasons. Usually because they make us feel good and have similar culture. This is why people of similar culture usually ends up living in the same places. This is why similar people become friends.
There are entire cities in Spain where only Nordic people live. And same thing in other countries. This is because they want to live near people with the same culture.
Trans people is something new and different, and it will take time before everyone is comfortable around them. This is not transphobia (irrational fear) or racism. This is human nature.
With time, it will become normal for people to have trans people around. But today it's unusual and people need to adapt to it.
I'm arguing that to make it easier to get to know Trans people, we have every opportunity here on Lemmy for example. If everyone remains friendly.
It is irrational. Just because you believe that various forms of xenophobia (writ large) are “human nature” does not make them rational. Phobias are irrational (that is ‘without reason’) by definition, and attempting to redefine a phobia from a clinical diagnosis to a justification based on your perception that people are inherently prejudiced is itself irrational.
Racists use exactly the same arguments. Racists argue for ethnostates on the basis of segregation being natural. They globalize their experiences and prejudices as universal rather than swing them as maladaptive opinions fueled by a cultivated hatred and distrust.
People are more than welcome to participate in LGBT communities, but they should recognize that those people are, in fact, people. They should recognize that they may come across like that scene in Blast from the Past where Brendan Fraser says “Bless my stars, a negro!” if they’re going to be like that, but there’s a world of difference between an ignorant but well meaning person and someone who both has embraced and propounds phobic talking points.
It's not a phobia so it's not irrational. I've tried to explain the reasons above but I don't think you agree, which is fine. According to your definition, everyone who feel uncomfortable around trans people are transphobic, which is absurd to me and I strongly disagree with that.
With that logic, I am also a racist if I prefer being around people from the same skin color and culture. Then almost everyone on the planet is a racist because they don't enjoy hanging out with other cultures (like I said above, people tend to group up and be friends with other similar people).
You cannot define medical terms to suit your need to feel like you are not irrationally prejudiced. Acrophobia, which I suffer from, is an irrational fear. As an evolutionary biologist, I can explain in a great level of detail how acrophobia can emerge in an evolutionary context and how it can have a physiological as well as a conditioned component. That doesn’t mean that it’s not irrational for me to feel fear while standing at the edge of a perfectly safe bridge.
Feeling uncomfortable around trans persons is transphobic, full stop. Feeling uncomfortable around black people is racist, full stop. If people are acting in a threatening manner - physically or verbally abusing people around them, for example - then it’s perfectly rational to feel uncomfortable because it is rational to fear for your own safety. If you’re uncomfortable because Bob the Drag Queen is wearing a dress and kissing a man, though, that’s on you.
Homophilia - the tendency for birds of a feather to flock together - is literally one of my major research areas and I have literally taught entire courses on it, where we study the origins and causes of the tendencies, how the base attribute is confounded by contagion of ideas between people, and why it is toxic and destructive in modern contexts.
I understand what you're saying. There's some degree of internalized transphobia that many trans people experience, themselves. More trans people around will mean that others will interact with them more and realize that they're just normal people. Your point here that aversion to trans people is not transphobia is the same argument that homophobes have made for decades. A phobia is not just an irrational panic-inducing fear. Your point here is just pedantic and wrong.
What we don't need on Lemmy is to have posts and comments that make trans people feel like they aren't welcome or feel like they're different for just expressing themselves authentically.
Edit: Also just to be clear, I don't necessarily think you're a bad person. You seem more open to discussing these issues and basically saying "yeah trans people can do their thing over there if they want" which is better than a lot of the people who are actively trying to rid the world of trans people. I think you're kind of on the right path but I hope that in time, you realize that some of your preconceptions aren't necessarily right. For example, saying that people like to be around people who are similar to them isn't necessarily wrong but applying it to gender expression or race would be considered transphobic or racist. I'm friends with people who share hobbies or interests with me. Their physical attributes don't change that at all. Be around people for the content of their character, not for how they look.
Substitute a race-based term for trans in your statement - that “normal” people don’t feel comfortable around black people because they just want to avoid them - but it’s not racism.
You might not feel comfortable around terms that have a specific meaning - like transphobia - but you should at least recognize that you’re redefining them to make yourself feel okay about them. What you’re describing is, in fact, transphobia. It is exactly analogous to feeling uncomfortable around black people but not wanting to label it racism.
Exhibit A your honour
No idea what you even mean with that. Did you expect a response with "oh that's strange, I'm sure everyone is really comfortable around trans people these days".
They just aren't.
I think instead of being hostile against people who admit they are not comfortable, maybe try to help and be a friend instead so people can start to understand that there is nothing to fear?
Trans people started one of the first mastadon instances and one of the first Lemmy instances as well. I think that's really cool, and I don't get why you would drop a oneliner with some kind of witty response when you can actually communicate with people here.
Hah, I love it.
It's natural that you're hostile to me, because you're uncomfortable, but me, I need to suck it up and be friends with you, despite you making me uncomfortable, because as the person you're "uncomfortable" with, the responsibility is all mine. You just sit there awaiting passive education, and feel guilt free dishing out your "discomfort" until then.
When I said I miss the transphobia free days of lemmy, that's what I was talking about. Because this conversation we're having right now wasn't a thing even a few months ago.
Yes, I'm one of those trans people...
Weird how nobody ever gets this up in arms over terms like hydrophobic 🤔
Why? Also seems perfectly natural to me.