this post was submitted on 28 Mar 2024
801 points (98.8% liked)
memes
10335 readers
1569 users here now
Community rules
1. Be civil
No trolling, bigotry or other insulting / annoying behaviour
2. No politics
This is non-politics community. For political memes please go to !politicalmemes@lemmy.world
3. No recent reposts
Check for reposts when posting a meme, you can only repost after 1 month
4. No bots
No bots without the express approval of the mods or the admins
5. No Spam/Ads
No advertisements or spam. This is an instance rule and the only way to live.
Sister communities
- !tenforward@lemmy.world : Star Trek memes, chat and shitposts
- !lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world : Lemmy Shitposts, anything and everything goes.
- !linuxmemes@lemmy.world : Linux themed memes
- !comicstrips@lemmy.world : for those who love comic stories.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
You're now the second commenter piling on as if this type of thing only happens with anime and anime fans.
Well in real life people change, so it’s weird to call it out as this weird thing that shouldn’t be happening.
I'm perfectly on board with redemption arcs. They can make for some of the best character development.
But Gajeel didn't change. He didn't have a redemption arc. His past actions are never confronted in any way whatsoever. His allegiance simply does a 180, and at no point is it even suggested that he has changed or grown as a person.
In fact the series makes a point of him being the "bad boy" of the group, one who is quick to anger, violent and abusive.
And then he's paired off with one of his past assault victims? Nauseating.
He had one of the required dragon powers they needed didn’t they? Unless I am misremembering they had no option but to work with him, and during that time he did significantly change, although kept the bad boy vibe. He even saved them a few times.
I really don’t see his arc being much different than someone’s like Vegeta.
Did he though? What makes you think that when he flies off the handle, he wouldn't still beat people to near death and crucify them first, and ask questions later?
Vegeta is slightly better, but not by much. Mostly because his behaviour is somewhat more believable, as long as you're imaginative enough to make up his off-screen self-improvement process for yourself.
Redemptions need to be earned. They do not work if the author just goes, "they're a good guy now".
I need to see the way the character thinks change, in a believable process with logical progress that I can comprehend.
Pulled from the internet, but yes.
One of the best examples of this is Gajeel. After Phantom Lord's disbandment, he's sitting alone in silence until Makarov comes and talks to him, asking him who he really wants to be and what he believes his future holds for him. Makarov offers him a place in Fairy Tail, and when Gajeel reminds him he's the one who attacked and crucified the three guild members, Makarov's face darkens and he still expresses clear hatred for this crime. Makarov clearly states that he still hasn't forgiven him for this, but he can't just let Gajeel wander in darkness and walk down a worse path knowing he could've helped him. And when he joins the guild, everyone is immediately hostile. Almost none of them accept him, and Shadow Gear later confront him and begin attacking Gajeel, until Laxus joins in and blasts him with lightning. But Gajeel accepts this punishment and does nothing to defend himself, allowing them to get their anger out. Here, he acknowledges his crimes and has to make a genuine effort to redeem himself, which he does in the following arcs.
Sometimes you need to read a little between the lines and look at how they do act differently, but similarly. It’s there, you can also choose to see that they haven’t changed, that’s the great thing about narratives, leaves a lot to interpretation.
Yeah that stuff doesn't show the process. It's just a switch that's been flipped by the author.
It's an explanation of how the good guys get over him joining them, not how Gajeel changed.
What about all the chances he had to let them die or to kill them off while alone, but he actually goes out of his way to save them? You seem to be ignoring the good that he actually did do after this exchange.
So I’ll turn it around, after that event, what did he do to show that he didn’t change and would flip at any moment again? Why do you think he didn’t change after showing he was willing to accept whatever punishment they had? Even to kill him then and there?
I don’t think this one was flip like you’re saying, this is chapters and chapters long of him struggling through and redeeming himself with his choices and actions.
And I don't think it's enough.
For Gajeel to get where he got, much, much more had to happen. The type of stuff I'm not sure Mashima knows how to write.
The only reason Vegeta sorta works for me, is that it's handwaved off as having occurred off-screen. But even then it's not a well done character redemption.
Both of these series aren't the type of stories that get into that stuff, so they expedite all the self-improvement and interpersonal stuff involved... But when you do that, pairing a character like Gajeel with his literal assault victim, doesn't work.
It’s a story about guilds fighting each other, calling it abuse is a stretch. They all did this stuff to each other, yeah a few take it further, but without that you don’t have a story/villian.
Also, you seem to accept that this and that can be glossed over, but stop at this arbitrary line? Seems weird, that’s all.
I called it assault. As in an attack. And unlike in a battle, where you fight to achieve a goal, Gajeel caused pain simply to cause pain.
The line isn't arbitrary, you can gloss over a villain switching sides.
You cannot gloss over a villain going from this:
To this:
Without making at least some readers queasy along the way.
The level of mental trauma Levy would have suffered wouldn't be a joke. Making a relationship even with a fully stabilized Gajeel, questionable.
Instead Mashima makes her one of the first to be understanding towards him, when her mental state should be closer to the kind where mentioning him causes a panic attack.
When things go into PTSD territory, when you get to the type of stuff that IRL causes people just drop relationships rather than figure things out, you simply can't take things in certain directions while glossing over the steps to get there, without evoking visceral disgust in a lot of readers.
Fine. Have Gajeel switch sides and redeem him. Do not have him canonically pair off with and impregnate an underage girl he brutally tortured and crucified.
They didn’t gloss over it, there was plenty of arcs where he constantly improved himself and showed how he changed, despite your claim that never happened.
So why do you think he didn’t change? You’ve provided no examples, yet all the arcs show how it happened through his actions.
Again, with the narrative you are free to ignore and interpret the stories your own way.
I don't remember the story to that extent. I remember being disgusted with how his character was handled.
You brought up points about the story I couldn't recall, but even if his change was displayed, it wasn't enough. It would never have been enough, not for where Mashima went with things. The endpoint we got should have been off-limits regardless.
Also, if I'm free to interpret things how I like, who is downvoting me?
Me since you kept arguing the same thing without addressing anything I brought up. As I said you ignored the good things he was doing, since you already thought he was passed redemption.
Which is very strange for an anime that you already said had to move fast and gloss over stuff. So why not gloss past this like everything else before you already did?
Nothing you've said makes Gajeel starting a family with a 17-year-old he once tortured to near-death, feel right.
So no, I can't gloss it over.
It’s a fantasy world where everyone literally beats the shit out of each other for fun, they obviously have vastly different views than you, so why would they even balk about it….? You’re projecting your own personal world view on a fantasy world… some people’s justice is literally I beat the shit out of you, we are best friends now, it’s not real fucking life lmfao, if it was a realistic manga, sure yeah you may have a point, but that’s neither here nor there.
You may be taking this a little bit too seriously if you draw arbitrary lines like you’re doing with a FANTASY media…..
It's a piece of entertainment media/art. It is intrinsically linked to the real world at least in the sense that a real person created it.
A component of it did things with the characters that me and a lot of other people don't like. End of discussion.
I don't understand why you feel there is anything here to talk about, or any way or even reason for you to try and convince me that my position doesn't have legs to stand on.
Pairing Gajeel with Levy, doesn't work for me because it causes a negative emotional response of visceral disgust. It doesn't fucking matter how much sense it makes within the context of the fictional world, when all I can imagine is how fucked the author must be in the head to think fans would enjoy that development.
And when I further think on the fact that a lot of them did enjoy it, and that it might even have been pandering to that exact group of people, the disgust gets worse.
It’s a fantasy world with completely different world views, the relationship actually fits within the lore of the universe… two people literally became best friends after beating the shit out of each other.
I’m sorry you think a FANTASY world has to have the same world view as you, maybe you need to immerse yourself into their narrative properly so you can understand how it actually fits perfectly for the lore and world they built.
I was saying everyone is free to interpret it their own way, but at the same time you can wrong since you aren’t understanding the lore, and that’s okay. What’s not okay is continually arguing the same points after having this pointed out you multiple times.
Clearly you didn’t actually come here for a discussion, so I’m gonna bounce now. Maybe look at what the artist is trying to tell you, instead of just assuming and building your own narrative.
It’s a fucking fantasy world, they have massively different standards and they obviously view abuse and assault differently. So why you would think they would react the same is just fucking wild, maybe you take these stories TOO seriously since you want them to be real? Idk, it’s fucking fiction lmfao.
Buddy, a person can't be "wrong" about what they do and don't like. If I don't enjoy rain, you can't walk in and tell me my preferences for weather are "incorrect". To do that would be completely deranged.
Get over yourself. There is literally no part of your position which can be defended objectively.
At best, you can claim "personally it doesn't bother me".
But you actually, cannot, tell people they are wrong for being bothered by fucked up interpersonal developments in fiction.
The fact that it's fiction doesn't even begin to be a point in your favor.
He is past redemption. Within what is possible in the type of story Mashima wrote, going from A (Gajeels crime) to B (His romance with Levy) cannot be done.
I'm not ignoring what you brought up. If that stuff was in there, I have nothing to refute and you're right. But it also doesn't matter. You have a point that his switching sides is nothing unusual, and done well, but that isn't the specific part I have a problem with.
I said that these series gloss over some things because they are told superficially, but that also makes certain turns impossible without turning off your reader.
One such turn this series attempts and fails to make, in pairing off Gajeel and Levy.