Fuck Cars
A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!
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I think it's funny that you overlooked vans like most people do. Vans make more sense for way more people than trucks and SUVs do. But they have a huge stigma attached to them and people don't want to look uncool.
Except vans aren't actually all that efficient, compare a Toyota Hiace VS Hilux, or ford Ranger vs Transit, and they are very similar in size and economy, with the Hilux actually being more efficient than the Hiace.
The biggest reason so many people have utes or pickups where I live is for towing, and the ability to carry five passengers and have luggage in a separate compartment.
I drive a van for work, and I'm well aware of how practical they are, but it only has one row of seats, can't tow bugger all, and would get stuck on wet grass.
There's plenty of work vans that are designed for a full 5 person crew. Vans can also easily tow whatever is needed for that crew, if the van was specced for it. It's like not all vans were created equal and thus there are vans out there that are not like your van.
OK, but what's the advantage? If the van is the same size as an equivalent pickup, how is it the better option?
And what model of van can carry five passengers and tow 3.5 tonne?
The Toyota Sienna can apparently tow ~~3.5 tonnes~~ 3500 lbs and carry 8 passengers. Average mpg while not towing is 36 too.
But most people don't tow anything ever and a van would be just fine.
It can tow 3500. 1.5 tons and that isn't a lot. Not as much as an SUV with a towing package and not even close to a 1/2 ton truck.
My b, 3500lbs. Most families aren't towing anything though. I'm not going to disparage anyone with a truck who needs to tow or haul a bunch. But there are people who don't tow anything and complain about midsize SUVs not having enough space for their family but balk at the idea of a van.
I'm so tired of hearing this. I've met like maybe 1 truck owner who never uses it "correctly". Y'all are inventing some imaginary figure in your heads from a 15 year old survey.
It may depend on where you live and work.
Of the ones I know, they either have big caravans, or rural properties where they genuinely need an off road vehicle.
Having wet, damp gear in a separate part of the vehicle is also useful.
Yeah, 1.5 tonne sounds more reasonable.
Won't tow construction equipment or a large boat or caravan, or travel off road, of course.
Clearly I'm not most people then.
Bullshit. Show me the spec sheet.
Also, people movers generally aren't made to move adults, eight manual labourers would be a tight fit, and leave no room for luggage.
Sorry, 3500 lbs. I'm not arguing that a minivan is a good work vehicle btw, but most families looking at SUVs would be better with a van. That's my argument.
As a former Sienna owner, they are great for families, and absolutely cavernous. Very practical for most families.
Towing is a pop up camper or small boat. I suppose a utility trailer would work, but it’s easier to just fold down or pop out seats and I’ve always made it fit.
Definitely not a work truck, and in particular that third row bench is constraining for adults
The two most common use cases where I live for a ute or pickup is a tradie or tech that wants one vehicle to serve as a work vehicle and a family car, or someone who wants the towing capacity of a ute or SUV. Neither one can really use a van, as trade vans only have one row of seats.
Most SUV owners want the towing capacity and ground clearance of an SUV.
This is potentially more specific to the US, but I imagine even if that is the case it probably affects everyone else by proxy at a minimum.
One of the big problems with trucks and SUVs is that they are not subjected to the same safety regulations as cars. They have high ground clearances, high noses, stiff suspensions and frames, and so on, and these things make them extraordinarily dangerous in a collision. That being said though, they might be necessary in very specific circumstances, for example if you are going off road and/or towing very heavy loads. If this applies to you regularly, like for work, buy a truck and drive it in good conscience. It is a tool fit for your purpose.
But if you are like most people, you don’t regularly tow heavy loads for work, and you don’t regularly drive off road, but maybe you do need to carry around lots of stuff and/or people, and spacious van might be more suitable. And with that comes a softer suspension, lower ground clearance, and a sloped nose that will make the van much less likely to kill people in a collision
Pickups and SUVs are extremely dangerous to pedestrians and smaller cars, due to their high, non-sloped fronts. Vans typically have a low, gently sloped front which is safer for people and other vehicles.
Historically, that has been the case, newer ones have autonomous braking and front cameras, which reduces pedestrian blind spots somewhat.
True, but it's not just an issue of visibility but the height on impact too (head and chest for pedestrians).
For me the biggest advantage is that vans fully enclose their cargo: good against climate and less likely to lose stuff to theft.
For towing capacity, this article gives 3 models that can tow 3.5 ton: https://www.vanarama.com/blog/vans/van-towing-capacity-chart-whats-the-best-van-for-towing
Seating can be however you want it to be. Vans are also used as mini buses, so all seating configurations in between no passengers and all passengers are possible.
Those are all bigger in every dimension than a ute though.
So, I repeat my question. How is a bigger, likely less efficient vehicle an improvement over a ute? Especially considering they can't travel off road.
Also, lockable canopies are commonplace where I live.
Yeah, moving goalposts now are we :D
I could try look up a smallish van with high towing capacity, it's probably not even that hard to find, seeing how easily I found multiple vans that fitted your earlier criteria, but somehow I know that I'd be wasting my time. You'll grasp at any straw and think up any rare scenario to justify your belief in trucks.
Trucks have their applications sure, especially for gardening/farming or other mobile crews that can benefit from having that mobile open bed near them, but for most work crews, vans are the better solution.
You didn't answer my question. How is a van inherently better than a ute of similar size? What's the difference?
And you could drive a Kei truck into the vans with a 3500kg tow rating.
Why don't we reverse this question and put the burden of proof on you? I've already looked up things and proven that stuff that you thought did not exist, did infact exist. So since I put in the work earlier, it's only fair that it's now your turn: you can look up a van and a similar sized truck and then make a comparison in what ways one is better than the other. Stuff like price, cargo sq space, cargo volume, cargo weight, towing limit etc. By using that comparison we will then be able to make an informed decision as to which one is best for your imagined situation. I'm looking forward to your comparison and conclusions.
You haven't proven anything, I was aware that monster "vans" built on a truck chassis exist.
You're making the claim, you back it up.
I've done my part, you're the one moving the goal posts. The burden of proof now falls onto you.
The goalpost has remained in the same location the whole time. Why is a van inherently better than a ute?
Nope, that question again goes way beyond your earlier disingenuous questions, you've the most the goalposts even further this time. So yeah, go waste your own time.
You should be more honest with yourself though. The only reason that you act like a vanity truck is a better utility vehicle than a van, is your ego. All your disingenuous trolling just helps to underline the point that's it not about which vehicle is actually most suitable for the job, it's all about satisfying that ego.
And there is nothing wrong with satisfying ego, everyone makes purchases that might not be the most practical, but which are simply more fun too them. But when you do, you don't have to make a fool out of yourself by pretending that your decision was based on practicality while everyone can see that it's about vanity.
I've explained, multiple times, using small words, why a ute is often a better option than a van.
You, on the other hand, have written unhinged text walls ranting about ego, while ignoring the very simple and straightforward case I've made.
You need help.
You were too stupid to realize that vans exist in many forms and configurations until I showed you that they did. You calling me stupid is not very convincing.
I am well aware of the existence of many configurations of van. I drive one for work, I know what they can and can't do.
This is potentially more specific to the US, but I imagine even if that is the case it probably affects everyone else by proxy at a minimum.
One of the big problems with trucks and SUVs is that they are not subjected to the same safety regulations as cars. They have high ground clearances, high noses, stiff suspensions and frames, and so on, and these things make them extraordinarily dangerous in a collision. That being said though, they might be necessary in very specific circumstances, for example if you are going off road and/or towing very heavy loads. If this applies to you regularly, like for work, buy a truck and drive it in good conscience. It is a tool fit for your purpose.
But if you are like most people, you don’t regularly tow heavy loads for work, and you don’t regularly drive off road, but maybe you do need to carry around lots of stuff and/or people, and spacious van might be more suitable. And with that comes a softer suspension, lower ground clearance, and a sloped nose that will make the van much less likely to kill people in a collision
I quite frequently tow, and drive down gravel access roads etc, so towing and ground clearance are very useful to me. My own car is a CX-5 though, so not a huge vehicle.
The safety rules thing isn't the case here, they still need to meet the same safety rules as everyone else.
My girlfriend's sister has a van she uses for Vanlife™ and that big stupid piece of lumbering shit gets stored 10 to 11 months of the year because driving it for regular things is totally unaffordable. It's just as gas inefficient and gigantic as the child killers.
I think the point is that even if you need to haul stuff frequently, a van will do the job way better than a truck