537
We coulda had Bernie...
(lemmy.world)
When you compare Biden to Trump vs. the effects on the Palestinians, were Trump president again, he would not just help the Israelis exterminate the Palestinians, but encourage them to do so quickly- as he's already told Bibi to "finish it". So your dichotomy is more than a bit disingenuous .
I'm all for socialism long term solution. I'm confused as to how that is an alternative to voting against the present greatest threat to socialism that can be voted against. What is the material implementation of "socialism" which provides a timely alternative to that action?
op commenter was talking about a long term solution.
socialism begins with the organization of the working class. this organization can be used to press your boss and the government in an effective way in the short term.
this 'pressure' can look like a strike, but its not limited to it.
Again, actions I support. These actions, however, are not mutually exclusive to voting in elections for the lesser evil. In fact, these actions are more substantially suppressed under the greater evil. The rational action then is to use all avenues available to oneself, including but not limited to voting for whichever of the two dominant parties is less detrimental to action on other avenues.
One of the two dominant parties is objectively worse for the organization of the working class. Vote for the less worse party, while you organize and pressure the powers that be.
I agree with that. This case though, presents two very evil options. You guys have been legalizing child labour again, building a theocracy and doing an ethnic cleansing in the middle east under the supposed lesser evil. They are accelerating fascism regardless of who wins, vote if you will but other avenues must be pursued if you are to keep your thin veil of civility.
Who is "you guys"? What point are you trying to make with this both-sides stuff? Child labor and theocracy are exclusively being pushed by the Republicans, no Democrats are doing that. Even in the middle east, Democrats are tiptoeing through a nasty web of geopolitics, while it's the Republicans who want to glass Palestine. Neo-Libs have a lot of problems, but it's simply deranged to imply they're anywhere near as evil as MAGA.
geopolitics is no excuse for the things being perpetrated inside but especially outside the us, currently by democrats. if the us made a bad judgment and found itself losing the situation, financing a literal genocide to avoid losing is not a justifiable thing to do here.
It seems like you're deliberately diverting away from my point: both sides are bad, but one is orders of magnitude worse than the other. Quashing voter turnout with this doomer rhetoric helps the worse one win. Democrats having problems doesn't stop Republican problems from being an existential threat to the future of our democracy, and any chance of leftward progress. You do realize this, right?
the paragraph you are responding to is basically me saying "not orders of magnitude, here is a real world scenario to illustrate"
the tiny minority of us socialists are not capable of swaying public opinion the way you say we do.
if we were at all we would be doing much bigger countrywide striking, not still at convincing other people of anything.
Yes, orders of magnitude. The only real world scenario that's relevant (because again, child labor and theocracy are purely Republican initiatives) is Palestine. Biden is trying to reign in Netanyahu within the latitude afforded him by existing, congressionally determined defense agreements and the complex geopolitical landscape of the middle east. Trump loves Netanyahu and thinks he should hurry up with the genocide already. That is orders of magnitude worse.
The tiny minority of socialists aren't capable of rallying large swaths of the population into countrywide action, this is true. But they can sway a slim minority of non-conservatives to sit out on an already dangerously close race. All they have to do is shave off a percent or two here or there to seal our fate.
democrats are literally doing all these things, right now. and you really do think geopolitics justifies financing a big fascist for a genocide? cmon man. there isnt good justification to sit at the nazi table.
people dont want to vote to biden because peoples actual lives are still slowly getting worse, and all they can do is pretend not to be commiting war crimes. most countries with mandatory polling suffer from the same problem.
if anyone wants more from socialism they can quit being on the side of the actual politicians doing heinous shit and participate instead. real grassroots needs people.
This is pointless. You're making things up. Show me which Democrats are pushing child labor and theocracy.
I'd rather my life slowly get worse than rapidly get worse, which is the alternative. Slowly getting worse buys time for grassroots. Trump will come down on grassroots. This is very simple logic, under no circumstance is Biden worse for socialists than Trump. This is ridiculous and you're being willfully obtuse.
what do you mean. democrats are commiting genocide in the middle east, torturing mexicans at the border, sending ukranians as cannon fodder.
and moving no muscle to stop and even contributing to any advance of the aforementioned fascism despite having the power to stop it.
Republicans would accelerate genocide in the middle east, torture more Mexicans at the border, and genocide Ukrainians.
They are the ones actively advancing the aforementioned fascism. Like I said, the choice is between things slowly getting worse, and quickly getting worse. Slowly getting worse gives us more time to do something about it. Democrats losing is objectively worse for all your talking points, worse for Americans, worse for the world, and particularly worse for leftists.
I don't know who's side you think you're on, but I certainly know what side your actions support. Either you're deliberately trying to hurt the left, or you've unwittingly fallen for talking points that serve to hurt the left. I'm not interested in talking to propagandists or their feckless stooges.