this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2023
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I'm no fan of piracy - just seems like a pretty name for petty theft to me - but this decision seems problematic. I went and read some of the threads about this decision on some of the other communities, including dbzer0, and I looked around the blocked communities on an alt account.
I'm not seeing evidence of actual copyrighted material posted, just discussions about how to steal content, which itself isn't illegal. And there's a pretty fair amount of content - the communities are active - so if there was a violation I feel like it should be handled as the exception it appears to be. Those communities themselves don't allow posting of copyrighted content, so it shouldn't be a problem to get a violation removed. If someone posted an image that contained child pornography to one of the NSFW communities, would we block the whole community, or just get that post removed (and alert the authorities)? The latter, I hope.
They also make a good case that the action was taken in response to a troll on a newly-created account who didn't provide any evidence of there being copyrighted material. That in itself seems like a problem, though maybe someone looked into it? I'm pretty supportive of the .World admins, I think you're doing a good job in a difficult situation, but I believe these communities should be unblocked unless there is an actual problem.
Yarr harr, tis incorrect sez me
Theft be taking somefing, I has it and you don't
You savu?
Copying be making another thing from a thing
Excuse me sir may I borrow a tomato seed? I'll give you one back in a few months, promise!
Yeah but in this case you still keep your seed, but now I also have that seed..... MAGIC!
Not a good analogy, you are still depriving them of a seed for a period of time. Something more accurate would be "Excuse me sir, may I take pictures of your successful tomato grow op so I can do the same thing at home in my own grow to feed my family."
Sounds like you need a seed bank.
PepsiCo is already on it back in 2019 Here
Let's say we live in a world where anyone is allowed to copy anything without issue or cost. Patents are now meaningless because people can copy an invention and make their own version, so there's no incentive for anyone do the entrepreneur thing or invent new devices. There's no reason for musicians to record anything other than maybe to drum up interest in their tours. No reason for digital artists to put things online. No writer is going to allow their work to be published as an ebook. Etc.
The costs to make things don't change and the profit targets don't change, so the people who do this are just causing higher prices for the prior who don't, in exactly the same way as stores raise their prices to cover the costs of shoplifting.
Holy assumptions, batman!
What assumptions do you disagree with?
The one where artists create art for financial gain.
That's fucking hilarious. I don't know how uncreative and unartistic you must be to hold such a view, but... "The starving artist" isn't on a hunger strike. They're dirt poor.
This key ideological crux of your argument leads me to believe you are so disconnected from creating art that I cannot bother myself to engage in a discussion with you about the nuances of intellectual property and if it even should exist at all. You're just blowing hot air around, and I'm not here for it. Neither is anyone else, it seems. So, cheers. I'm sure you'll say something, and I'm sure it will further illustrate your disconnection to this argument, so I probably won't respond.
Way to blow off an opinion your disagree with by making incorrect assumptions. I actually grew up around artists and musicians and am close friends now with a cartoon illustrator and a professional musician.
So now do you want to tell me why my opinion is wrong?
lol ok
Your opinion is very, very wrong.
How can I argue with such a well articulate position?
Yep.
Again, lots of rationalizations for taking stuff without paying. Can I ask you what you do for a living and if you think whatever product or service it is should be provided by you for free?
For a living, I mostly write software and do research in mathematics, and yes it should be free. I don't necessarily say that there should not be an option to pay for using it for business purposes, but in my opinion it should always be possible to easily and legally get it for personal use. I cannot share the code directly due to NDA's, but it still should be public and accessible for any physical persons.
And an important thing I forgot to mention: you assume that piracy is some invisible force that makes customers not buy the product and inflicts purely theoretical losses to the company, while in reality the vast majority of pirates would not buy the product anyways, and some (like me) have bought hundreds of e.g. games, just because they liked the pirates version. Some studies have shown that piracy has a positive net influence on the number of sold copies. Saying that piracy loses sales is just a stupid rhetoric used by greedy callous companies to raise prices even more, though the product does not change.
So you don't collect a salary for the work you do?
I do, but do note that all public research is funded somehow, though importantly it is public, so free to access. This is my idea of how all research should be conducted.
I agree, public research is usually funded by government grants, which means paid for by our taxes, and so it's for public benefit. That's a pretty special case, and only applies to a tiny percentage of jobs.
Most people make ends meet by working a job that ultimately is funded by the sale of a product or service.
Sale of revokable for any reason at all licenses to access digital content should be a crime, not piracy. This content can be infinitely reproduced with no harm to the owner, in fact in most cases the owner doesn't even know that you specifically copied the content. I completely agree that everyone should support creators they like, but I completely disagree that it should be compulsory on often whatever terms the author comes up with to extort as much money as they can.
I don't think theft becomes something lesser if the victim isn't aware of it. If you pickpocket a $20 from my back pocket that I didn't realize was there, it's still theft.
And I think the argument about the content being digital and infinitely copyable is also a rationalization. If I'm trying to make a living as an independent software developer and I spend two years of my life making a game hoping it will become popular, you making a copy of it for free is still harming me, even if I'm not aware that you did it - it's you getting the fruits of my work without compensating me. We have copyright laws to encourage people to make content, knowing that their work will be protected. Without that protection, there's no reason to make that content.
Again, lots of rationalization for taking something you want without paying for it. It always comes down to "it's a big company, it won't hurt them" or "no one will even know I made a copy so it shouldn't be a crime," etc.
Not being aware was a simpler expression to convey "does not have any influence on that person". And no, it does not harm you. Please explain what difference does it make to you if someone does not buy the game or does not buy the game and pirate it. And better yet, if you think that the comparison should be between a specific human being purchasing the game or pirating for it, please explain how can you prove someone did have the intent to buy the game? Even if so, the person responsible is not the one making a decision to pirate, but the one making it available for piracy. I still disagree with this view of reality, but for me personally assigning more responsibility to the websites offering content rather than the users is a more sensible middle ground. The main problem for me is the idea of a "lost sale", whereas it is not possible to prove someone was going to buy the product. I've even seen some people suggest things like "if you are poor and can't afford entertainment then you shouldn't have entertainment", which is completely absurd, because in this case specifically piracy even more clearly has no negative impact on anyone, and just a positive one for the person unable to afford a product.
It doesn't make much difference a person refusing to buy your game isn't going to buy your game.
I guess in some cases they might be simply butthurt losers about it (most people attacking piracy are) and in some cases they'd be seething about people being free to choose not to buy their stuff in the first place, though they'd never say that because they would sound crazy, greedy, and tyrannical, even to people against piracy.
They don't really feel anything from it, if they do they're just butthurt losers.
Is it possible to calculate which people who steal content would have purchased it if stealing it was not an option? No, of course not. Would you suggest that the number is zero? That no one who steals it would have purchased it? Especially considering the fact that prices in general would be lower for everyone if stealing it was impossible? I think it's pretty safe to say that people stealing content robs creators of some profits. Which, by the way, is why it's illegal.
And are you suggesting that the only form of entertainment poorer people have as options are movies and games that they have to steal? Because that's crazy. My family was not well off when I was little and there were loads of things that we couldn't afford that my friends could. It's like you're insinuating that I'm arguing that poor people shouldn't be able to eat if I say that it's not okay for people to steal filet mignon. There are movies on TV and YouTube. There are free and affordable games. Most older content is pretty cheap. We're not taking away someone's inalienable rights by saying that to see the latest Marvel blockbuster, they have to pay for it.
It's remarkable to me that people justify this stuff by saying it's right and good. I'm not an angel, but when I do something I shouldn't, I don't try to convince people that I'm entitled to it. I don't make up words to make my actions sound okay.
I think this discussion is leading nowhere, but I again want to emphasize the fact that you cannot point to a person and say that their actions specifically led to any harm and thus you cannot (imo of course) morally hold them responsible. As for the second part that was not my point, you are of course right about what you said and I agree with the whole paragraph, I just wanted to show an extreme example of how there is no harm, because there is no way such a person would pay for the content anyways - so yeah, you can just let them not enjoy filet mignon, but why would you when they could eat it with no harm to anyone? And as for the last part I am not stating that piracy is always a clearly good thing, I am just stating that it is ethically neutral in most cases and rarely necessary to save content from being forgotten or for other research purposes, when eg. the scientific articles are locked behind absurd paywalls.
I don't know that I've ever seen that definition of theft. Hell, we call it "stolen valor" when someone purports to have served in the military when they haven't. It's" identity theft" if you pass yourself off as me, even though I'm still me. I think this is yet another rationalization for taking something that doesn't belong to you without paying.
I'm sorry you're ignorant of the issue.
For starters, piracy is not theft in most legal jurisdictions. It is infringement. These are different words in laws for a reason. Saying it's "theft" is falling for a PR campaign made by parties with a vested interest in that interpretation being in the public consciousness.
Next, a lot of piracy (I'm not going to comment on what proportion because I lack the numbers ... and so does literally everybody else because of the underground nature of this!) is of material that is simply not available through any other means to the people doing said piracy. I, for example, freely admit to piracy ... of things that I simply cannot buy where I am. There are literally zero avenues for me to purchase the things I pirate, so I pirate. There are, similarly, things which have been out of print, out of production, or otherwise unavailable anywhere in the world for ages that get pirated. (I don't pirate enough of these to say this is a primary motivation for me.)
Finally, there is some piracy that is actually directly virtuous. For example the people who pirate secret docs that reveal the illegal, immoral, or otherwise despicable shenanigans of large entities like corporations and governments.
Wow, what a smug and condescending response that misses the point.
First of all, I was clearly not trying to capture a legal definition, I said it seemed like a pretty name for petty theft to me, and I stand by that. In other words, people generally say they're pirating something instead of saying they're taking something illegally that doesn't belong to them because that doesn't make what they're doing sound as good.
I scanned through some of those communities, and I didn't get a sense that trying to attain stuff that's not available is anything approaching a majority of the discussion, but even so, it not being available where you are doesn't make it okay to steal. And you're being ridiculous if you're trying to insinuate that (1) any meaningful percentage of the piracy communities are about whistleblowers uncovering unethical or illegal activity or (2) people in general use the word "piracy" to describe that activity. I mean, are there any mainstream articles about Manning, Assange, or Snowden that describe them as pirates?
Still seems like a lot of folks trying to justify not paying for stuff they want.
Say "I didn't read the contents of the comment I'm responding to" without using those words.
Didn't I actually respond specifically to the main points one that comment? What did I miss?