politics
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
view the rest of the comments
I'm aware of the standard line.
De facto responsibility can't be transferred from the employees solely to the employer to match the legal responsibility assignment in the employer-employee contract. A thought experiment showing this is to consider an employer and employee cooperating to commit a crime. The employee can't argue that they sold their labor, and are not responsible. The law correctly applies the principle of legal and de facto responsibility matching. Both are criminous
@politics
Responsibility is an inescapable part of human existence. Each individual must be accountable for their actions, regardless of the roles they play within a larger organisation. The idea that an employee can absolve themselves of responsibility by claiming they merely sold their labor is a dangerous fallacy. It undermines the very essence of individual autonomy and moral agency.
Consider the case of an employer and an employee conspiring to commit a crime. Both parties are making conscious choices, and thus, both bear the responsibility for those choices. Attempting to transfer blame entirely to the employer is not only logically flawed but morally indefensible. The employee, in choosing to participate in the crime, exercises their own judgment and will, and must face the consequences of those actions.
The law rightly reflects this reality by holding both the employer and the employee accountable. This alignment of legal responsibility with de facto responsibility is essential for a just and moral society. Each person must recognize and accept their own role in their actions and the inherent responsibilities that come with it. To do otherwise is to deny one's own humanity and the ethical duty to live as a rational, self-determined being.
Thank you for making my argument for me. Now, what morally relevantly changes when workers cooperate to produce a widget on behalf of the employer instead of committing crimes for the employer? Do they become non-conscious non-responsible robots? No.
Legal responsibility matching de facto responsibility implies that all firms should be mandated to be worker coops, and rules out employer-employee contracts. In worker coops, the workers are jointly legally responsible for the results
@politics
The notion that legal responsibility should align with de facto responsibility and thereby necessitate that all firms operate as worker cooperatives, banning employer-employee contracts, is an egregious affront to the principles of individual rights and freedom. This proposition assumes a collectivist paradigm where the individual’s agency and sovereignty are subsumed under the collective will of the group.
In the moral universe that respects individual liberty, each person has the right to enter into contracts of their own volition. The employer-employee relationship is one such contract, where each party consents to specific terms for mutual benefit. To mandate that all firms must function as worker cooperatives is to obliterate the sanctity of voluntary association, replacing it with a coerced collectivism that is antithetical to the very essence of a free society.
Worker cooperatives may be suitable for some, but to impose this structure universally disregards the diverse needs and aspirations of individuals. It denies the entrepreneur the right to create and lead a venture according to their vision, and it strips employees of the choice to enter into employment agreements that they find advantageous.
Legal responsibility should indeed align with de facto responsibility, but this alignment must be rooted in the acknowledgment of individual rights and the freedom to choose. Forcing all firms to become worker cooperatives would destroy the foundation of capitalism—the system that recognises and protects individual rights, allowing for innovation, productivity, and human flourishing.
The tenet that legal and de facto responsibility match, when applied to property theoretic questions, is the tenet that people have an inalienable right to appropriate the positive and negative fruits of their labor. The latter is the principled basis of property rights. Since employment violates the former principle, it also violates the latter. Employment contracts violate property rights' principled basis.
Labor isn't transferable.
The foundations of capitalism need destroying
@politics
To assert that legal and de facto responsibility should match is to acknowledge the inviolable sanctity of individual effort and its resultant rewards. This principle, indeed, forms the bedrock of property rights, recognising that a person's labour and its fruits are inherently theirs to claim. The notion that employment, by its nature, contravenes this principle is a profound misapprehension of the dynamics of a free-market system.
Employment is a voluntary transaction between individuals—an agreement where one chooses to trade their labour for compensation. This exchange is not a violation of rights but a manifestation of them. The freedom to contract, to negotiate terms, and to mutually benefit from each other's strengths is the essence of a capitalist society.
To suggest that labour isn't transferable is to deny the autonomy of individuals to dispose of their effort as they see fit. It is to ignore the fact that in a true capitalist society, the individual retains full control over their labour, choosing when, where, and for whom to work based on their own rational self-interest.
The foundations of capitalism do not need destroying; they need understanding and appreciation. They are built upon the recognition of individual rights, the freedom to engage in mutually beneficial exchanges, and the respect for personal property. It is through these principles that human potential is unleashed, innovation thrives, and societies flourish. To dismantle these foundations is to undermine the very source of progress and prosperity.
Employment is a voluntary transaction, but there has to be some corresponding factual transfer to actually fulfill the contract. No such de facto transfer of de facto responsibility occurs to match the assignment of legal responsibility in the employment contract. The contract is not ever fulfilled nor is it, in principle, fulfillable. The only arrangement where legal and de facto responsibility match is a worker coop. Labor is nontransferable at a factual level. You accepted as much
@politics
In the realm of human interaction, the employment contract stands as a testament to mutual consent and the pursuit of rational self-interest. Employment is not a mere exchange of labour for compensation; it is an embodiment of individual choice and the recognition of one’s value.
The assertion that no factual transfer of responsibility exists within traditional employment is fundamentally flawed. When an individual agrees to an employment contract, they are consciously choosing to trade their skills and effort for a commensurate reward. This is a voluntary transaction where both parties benefit: the employer receives the value of the employee's labour, and the employee is compensated accordingly. To claim that this transaction is unfulfillable is to deny the efficacy of human action and the capacity for individuals to uphold their agreements.
I agree that employment is voluntary in the legal sense. Voluntary transaction occur if both parties perceive that they will benefit from the arrangement. The problem is that responsibility can't be transferred.
You know that there is no de facto transfer of de facto responsibility happening in the employment contract. If you thought that a transfer of de facto responsibility occurs in employment, you would think that the employer is solely legally responsible for crimes committed
@politics