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New player looking for advice on choosing a support class (Pathfinder 2e) (lemmy.world)
submitted 5 months ago by glimse@lemmy.world to c/rpg@ttrpg.network
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Hello everyone,

We are nearing the end of my first TTRPG campaign and in a few weeks, the DM is starting a homebrew. I joined this one half way through and a friend slapped together most of my level 7 character for me, a basic fighter. For this new campaign I'm hoping to have "more to do" in and out of battle so I'm looking for class advice.

I want to play a support class but I've been feeling overwhelmed by the class options. All I know is that I want it to be beginner-friendly support that can heal but also do more - like damage, buffs, or debuffs. Doesn't have to be all 3!

The group gave me a few suggestions but there was so much back and forth about how complicated they are, I thought I'd pose the question here.

Can someone help point me in the right direction on a simple support? Any help would be appreciated!

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[–] Kichae@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The most beginner friendly support classes are the Bard and the Cleric. The Cleric is a very powerful healer, with their Healing Font feature granting them a number of free extra heal spells per day, and it comes in 2 flavours: The Cloistered Cleric, that wears robes and casts spells, and stays at the back of the party, and the Battle Cleric, that wears armor, uses a shield, and works as a front line class.

Both can do a fair bit of buffing and debuffing with their non-font spell slots.

The Bard is the gold standard support caster in the game, with less focus on healing, and a wider variety of support options.

Clerics have access to the Divine spell list, and are Prepared Casters, while Bards use the Occult spell list, and are Spontaneous Casters. Take a look at those lists, and what those casting types mean, at the Archives of Nethys

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Oh really? I guess I had Clerics all wrong...I thought they were pure healbots! There's a few playable races that would work well for a Cleric so that class is back on the table.

I was initially thinking bard because there's been a few times this campaign when someone has said "if only we had a bard in the party" but I think I've been hesitant because it's such a common beginner class, though it's obviously for a reason

[–] Kichae@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

If your party needs a heal bot, they need better tactics (which isn't a slight -- tactics are hard), and a non-magical healer to use battle medicine.

But no, Cleric's whole gimmick is extra dedicated heal slots so they can use their regular spell slots to do other fun things. They can be very flexible, and we're hoping for a significant expansion of the Divine spell list in the fall with War of the Immortals coming out.

Look into a battle cleric in particular. They're very versatile.

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

I just meant I wasn't considering Clerics before this because I thought they only healed. If this campaign is any indication of the group tactics, we definitely don't need a healbot.

I will check out battle cleric!

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

4 Questions:

  • What level are you starting at?
  • Will you be playing with Free Archetype?
  • What kind of fantasy characters do you find compelling and interesting (in TV, movies, and games)?
  • What kind of setting are you playing in?
[–] glimse@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

  • Starting at level 1 this time, thankfully!

  • I had to look that up and ~~I have no idea so I'll have to ask lol~~ it is not free archetype

  • I am both a newbie to TTRPGs and fantasy. The only thing that comes to mind is my Pandaren Brewmaster in WoW...but I do not want to tank. If you're familiar with WoW classes/specs, my other favorite characters were prot paladin, survival hunter, and holy priest

  • ~~I don't know the details yet but it seems like a~~ typical fantasy setting

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Follow-up on question 3: I wasn't asking about video game mechanics. I'm asking what kind of characters you like. As in what kind of personality, what kind of choices they make, what a scene with that character feels like, etc. It doesn't need to be traditional Western medieval fantasy if that's not something you've experienced a lot of.

A good TTRPG character starts not with mechanics but with a strong inspiration. Creating an RPG character is a creative act. Filling out the character sheet shouldn't feel like paperwork, it should feel like exploring a real person. Pathfinder is a game about a team of heroes. What "team of heroes" media do you like and why do you like it? Who are your favourite heroes?

Which character in Avatar the Last Airbender is your favourite? Which MCU superhero is your favourite? Which of the Teen Titans is the hottest and why is it Starfire? Which Star Trek character is your spirit animal?

Moreover, and I alluded to this in the other post, but there isn't really a "wrong" way to build a character in Pathfinder (as long as you take some basic steps like maxing out the primary stat). It's only wrong if you don't like playing them. So we should start with what kind of character you want to play.

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I prefer quiet characters over braggadocios ones. Ironically, Gambit is my favorite X-Man followed by the much more appropriate Professor X. I like when characters avoid the spotlight and take care of stuff "from the sidelines." Some other characters that fit the description (I think, not too into these franchises): Samwise Gamger, Ron Weasley, Podrick

[Whoops, hit send before finishing. Give me a minute to write the rest...]

The race I am leaning is Ysoki, specifically the tiny subrace unique to this campaign. I don't want to be a hero, I want to support the heroes as they do their hero things. I don't care if others see how I'm helping as long as my party knows it - I'm not big on getting recognition.

The DM wants to work out our back stories together so he can weave it into the campaign so I haven't given a ton of thought to it just yet

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Interesting. When you say "support", can you unpack that a bit? There are a lot of different ways of being a support in PF2e. You can be a healer obviously or someone who has an aura that buffs stats. But support can also mean someone who nails the Recall Knowledge check and finds out the enemy's secret weakness. Or supporting can be someone who intimidates the enemy or taunts them or even someone who attacks them (since tripping, grappling, shoving, and disarming all are considered attacks)

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago (2 children)

First and foremost I want to be able to heal in and out of combat. But I'm saying Support and not Healer because I want to have other spells/actions to take - like making my party do more (or take less) damage or blind/confuse enemies.

If I'm sounding weird about describing it, it's because I find my current character pretty boring in combat. I basically just shoot my bow, miss with Electric Arc, or cast Haste. The monk in our party (veteran player) does so many different things and the druid (another veteran) seems to bust out situationally-useful spells every session.

I want more options in a fight so it feels like my choices matter. The problem is....I have no idea what the options are except what I've seen in this campaign.

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

It sounds to me like something with the occult spell list is ideal. A Bard is definitely a top pick since they are all around excellent supports. But they can also be a bit plain since every combat you just play a lingering composition and then avoid getting hit. That being said, I think you could definitely have a good time playing a Bard.

I'll offer a slightly different suggestion though which I think you might like: the Psychic. They use the occult spell list, so you will have access to Soothe for healing and plenty of solid utility, buff, and debuff spells. And they are a spontaneous caster which is a lot less bookkeeping. But they also are solid damage dealers with stronger cantrips and more varied focus spell options. You will usually have an interesting blaster option on your turn as well as a support option. There are even some subclasses which are wholly focused on being a support (The Infinite Eye being the most support focused subclass). You can pick either Intelligence or Charisma as your main stat, which means you can further support either by using recall knowledge if you go the path of INT, or demoralize, deception, and Bon Mot if you choose CHA.

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Sorry for the delay, I started looking into this last night and fell into the rabbit hole....but I'm sold. I put together a rough character on one of the builder sites and started working out the backstory with the GM.

I will be playing a Skitterpaw (unique to this campaign) Ysoki Psychic

Background: Scholar (Occultism)

Conscious Mind: The Infinite Eye

Subconscious Mind: Gathered Lore

Cantrips: Telekinesis Projectile, Void Warp, and Void Step

Spells: Soothe and.....undecided because the builder only gives me True Strike as an option..? I think I should have other choices but I don't know

Soothe seems good enough for what I want but out of curiosity, are there other healing spells to pick up later?

And do deities even matter outside of RP for non-Clerics? I couldn't quite figure that out..

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Spells: Soothe and.....undecided because the builder only gives me True Strike as an option..? I think I should have other choices but I don't know

Every Psychic subclass has one forced spell choice at each spell rank. So True Strike is forced because you chose Infinite Eye. It's okay because you'll get more spell options as you go. Don't feel obligated to use True Strike. It's rarely going to be as good as other options since you aren't focusing on damage.

Soothe seems good enough for what I want but out of curiosity, are there other healing spells to pick up later?

Yeah, the better version of Soothe is rank 2 Soothe, and then rank 3 Soothe, etc. I'd recommend you make Soothe your rank 1 Signature Spell. That way, you'll be able to cast it at higher levels without needing to invest more spells known.

The occult spell list doesn't have as many HP heals as the divine spell list, but you only really need one as long as it can be upcasted. As you level up you'll get access to other kinds of reactive and defensive spells which can cleanse debuffs off of your allies (eg. Lesser Restoration or whatever it's called now with the remaster).

Also worth noting that casting spells is a very suboptimal way of healing out of combat. Since you are going the route of the INT psychic, you should put a skill point in Medicine and focus on using Treat Wounds outside of combat for healing. Probably also grab Battle Medicine in order to have another healing option in combat.

And do deities even matter outside of RP for non-Clerics? I couldn't quite figure that out..

Nope. Not unless your GM makes them matter.

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Ok, great - I'm much more confident in the choice and I appreciate your help in getting there!

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Happy to help! Feel free to tag me or DM me if you have more questions down the road. Hope you have a better experience with this character

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I've got an oddball one for ya if you feel like getting creative...

The GM hasn't finished fleshing out the subrace I picked and said if I have any ancestry feats to suggest, he'd be down with implementing them. It's a very small (1-2ft) Ysoki and I've got nothing even after looking up Mouse Facts™. I guess mice have really good hearing?? No idea how that translates to a TTRPG

Got any fun feat ideas for when Fievel Goes West? No big deal if not. I'm asking as a creative exercise more than anything!

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

For the hearing, there is an Elf heritage that grants a bonus to perception when relying on hearing. They could also do something with hearing or smell as imprecise senses since most beast races get something like that.

For playing as a Tiny creature, I'd recommend looking at how the toy Poppet handles it. Basically tiny creatures have shorter ranges (since a weapon that reached 5 feet into the neighbouring square would be unwieldy for them). That shouldn't impact you very much as a caster though.

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The GM said to thank you for the ideas because being a psychic opens up some new story possibilities that he's excited about.

Part of my character's backstory is that he was one of the few survivors when his village of psychics was destroyed during a razorback stampede (and I, as a baby, was the only one who "saw" it coming). He and his family were then taken in by a loxodon/minotaur clan and it just so happens that another player made a minotaur from that same area so we're gonna be buds and I'm going to (mostly) ride on his shoulder so we're gonna get a few more fears. Like if I heal him while in tow, I get healed for half of it, too. Sounds like it's gonna be a pretty fun campaign!

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Hey, like I said I was happy to help!

I really hope there's some tension between your mouseman and the loxodon to play on the fact that elephants are afraid of mice 🤣

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I was trying to figure out a good way to do that! But the loxodons are so peaceful and they came to our rescue so I wasn't sure how to spin it.

I also have a mouse familiar (with the DM's approval since it's technically supposed to be a rat) so maybe he can be the one who gets up to those shenanigans....once I figure out what I'm supposed to do with a familiar as a psychic...

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

IRL I think the reason is the elephant is worried about stepping on the mouse, or worried that the mouse will crawl up its trunk. You wouldn't have to play it like racism, more just that the size difference makes him nervous

once I figure out what I'm supposed to do with a familiar as a psychic...

There are familiar abilities that give extra focus points which will be super useful for you as a Psychic. Also ones that boost your Charisma checks

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

Ohh I like that one! He has a feat for smell (+2 perception) but I pitched him the elf heritage one and he's on board

[–] friek@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

After reading through this I'd also like to suggest Druid. I'm slightly biased, though, I'm a level 9 druid with a giant otter companion :-)

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I would LOVE to play a druid at some point because it's my favorite fantasy class but after seeing the amount of spells the druid in our party has, I decided to hold off for another campaign.

I decided to go with bionicjoey's suggestion of a Psychic. I was wavering on all the other options but this one instantly clicked with me when I looked it up so I'm running with it!

[–] friek@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Not a bad choice at all, I play a modified Wine (Weed) Oracle in a different campaign - that dude is super fun to play!

I like the druid because it gets me into the collaborative story telling aspect of RPGs. I have to think about what the situation, terrain, mission, etc are to decide on what spells for the day.

Edit: I am wrong on the spell choices 90% of the time. But that one time I lily padded the entire party out of a swamp...

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

They're so versatile. That's what I love about them but also makes me want to hold off until the next campaign

[–] zcd@lemmy.ca 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

You want "More to do" then look no further than wizard! You're not a beginner anymore, you can handle the unlimited power! You can change your selections of spells each day, you have access to tools for any occasion. Ignore the direct damage spells, look at things that can change your party's fortune without allowing your enemies a chance to even roll a saving throw. Buff your meatshields (ahem, allies), solve any and all noncombat problems with arcane power. Use your creativity to drive your dm crazy!

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I appreciate the reply but that definitely sounds scary and daunting lol

I can't imagine I'll be doing much spell swapping each day. Is there a "base" build for support? And does it have heals?

[–] zcd@lemmy.ca 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

If you look at the whole spell list it's kind of daunting. But you're starting off at level one I would assume, so you will only have a small portion of the low level spells to look at initially. It's super manageable If you think about it in small chunks, and you'll have lots of time to read through the higher level of spells and think about the ones you wanna learn once they are available when you level up. Healing... really? A wizard of your talents?

I just saw above you mentioned that you played wow. It's kind of the same thing, if you were to look at the endgame skill list of another class that you never played before it would be crazy. But when you start them off at level one there's just a few mechanics to learn and it's not overwhelming at all

[–] Kichae@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 months ago

There are good tools for limiting your view to only what spells are relevant, too. I like the spellbook over at pf2easy.com for this.

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

Someone's gotta heal! I don't want everyone to rely on potions

I'm having trouble finding much info on the healing abilities of wizards but I swear I read about it a few weeks ago..

[–] glimse@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

Tagging @bionicjoey@lemmy.ca because in another thread he told me to let him know when I posted this!