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submitted 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) by OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

@o_o@programming.dev asked "why are folks so anti-capitalist?" not long ago. It got quite a few comments. But I noticed a trend: a lot of people there didn't agree on the definition of "capitalism".

And the lack of common definition was hobbling the entire discussion. So I wanted to ask a precursor question. One that needs to be asked before anybody can even start talking about whether capitalism is helpful or good or necessary.

Main Question

  • What is capitalism?
  • Since your answer above likely included the word "capital", what is capital?
  • And either,
    • A) How does capitalism empower people to own what they produce? or, (if you believe the opposite,)
    • B) How does capitalism strip people of their control over what they produce?

Bonus Questions (mix and match or take them all or ignore them altogether)

  1. Say you are an individual who sells something you create. Are you a capitalist?
  2. If you are the above person, can you exist in both capitalist society and one in which private property has been abolished?
  3. Say you create and sell some product regularly (as above), but have more orders than you can fulfill alone. Is there any way to expand your operation and meet demand without using capitalist methods (such as hiring wage workers or selling your recipes / process to local franchisees for a cut of their proceeds, etc)?
  4. Is the distinction between a worker cooperative and a more traditional business important? Why is the distinction important?
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[-] JoeClu@lemmy.world 58 points 11 months ago

Sounds like Poly Sci homework. How about you answer the questions and post them here.

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 30 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Sure. To me, ~~capitalism is any system that supports ownership of any property -- oil rigs, land, factories, assembly lines, burger machines, copyrights and patents, mines, farms, etc -- that is used to collect the products of another person's labor. (For example, when the oil rig worker is payed a wage, but the oil rig owner owns the oil that was pumped, that's capitalism.)~~

EDIT: Wolfhound pointed out that my definition ought to specify who is allowed to to control this property. And that's true.

Capitalism is any system that permits all people (or non-person entities) with sufficient wealth to own property -- oil rigs, land, factories, assembly lines, burger machines, copyrights and patents, mines, farms, etc -- that is used to collect the products of another person's labor. (For example, when the oil rig worker is payed a wage, but the oil rig owner or oil rig corporation owns the oil that was pumped, that's capitalism.)

The property used in the above manner is called capital, or private property. The person using it is called a capitalist.

As for whether it is conducive to workers controlling what they produce, my answer is that -- by definition -- capitalism allows someone else to control what workers produce. It does not guarantee a worker any power over what they produce, and in the majority of cases (where a worker must pay rent, health insurance, food, etc and cannot afford to start their own business or buy their own equipment) it actually pressures workers into situations where they do not control what they produce.

[-] ImaginaryFox@kbin.social 33 points 11 months ago

Too short Owen. Assignment is 1250 words minimum with proper MLA citation. Resubmit before the deadline.

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

🤣 🤣

Look, I promise: I was just annoyed at people talking past each other on the question @o_o@programming.dev asked. And I just wanted to ask the question in a way that might address the problems that o_o's question ran into.

[-] WolfhoundRO@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I really feel like this definition is fairly incomplete. All the traits you mentioned can also describe feudalism, but replacing "capitalist" with "noble", which is sanctioned and invested by other nobles or the suzerain. You could say that capitalism is "any system that supports private ownership of private property that is used to collect the products of another person's labor". With the mention that the private ownership can be asserted by either a person or an organized group of persons, but both private entities

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 5 points 11 months ago

Ah... good point. My description did nothing to distinguish capitalism from feudalism. There is necessity for some mention of who is allowed ownership of this form of property. (Or what is allowed ownership as is often the case.)

As for the word private though: I wanted to avoid more terms I would need to define that might obscure my definition. Also I'm not even sure what distinguishes private ownership from other kinds of ownership. Or what makes a private entity.

But thanks for the input. At some point I'll edit my definition.

[-] 1rre@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Copyrights and patents
Used to collect the products of another person's labor

If you ask me it's the exact opposite... Copying someone else's work with no benefit to them removes a big driver for innovation.

This also only really applies with corporations - you could in theory have everyone be self-employed in a capitalist society

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 4 points 11 months ago

Ideally, copyrights and patents would protect the small inventor and small musician. Unfortunately, wielding copyrights and patents in any useful way requires other forms of capital. (You have to have wealth in order to sue someone for infringement.)

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[-] TheWelfareStore@lemm.ee 7 points 11 months ago

That kind of defeats the purpose of the discourse, no? If OP defines capitalism, either straight from the dictionary or per their own definition, this thread is still going to argue about the semantics of it. Might as well start where it gets interesting imo

[-] Nemo@slrpnk.net 28 points 11 months ago

Capitalism is an economic system where capital is considered a valid input to the production process, worthy of renumeration. Contrast with some other systems where labor is the only valid input.

Capital is material wealth used productively.

Capitalism empowers ownership of produced good by laborers by funding new ventures where laborers can be more self-directed than if they were forced to labor under the direction of others. Capitalism erodes control from laborers by introducing a non-labor stake in the venture. Both are true.


An artisan who sells what they produce is free to be a capitalist or not, the two are unrelated.

Such a person cannot exist in a society without private property, as "selling" is not a valid concept in such a society. Artisans in general would still exist, though, and probably more abundantly.

An artisan who has more work orders than she can fill alone can expand without the methods you describe. She can form a partnership with another artisan, and teach or otherwise share her methods of production, tools, and branding. This could be an equal partnership or something more like taking an apprentice.

The distinction between worker coöps and other businesses is important, but it's also important to recognize that coöps are a subset of businesses, not an opposing type of entity. Coöps have just as much ability to behave in a predatory manner towards consumers, and almost as much potential to seek self-perpetuation and growth at the expense of their environment. That they will be less predatory towards laborers is nice, but it's not enough to make them "safe".

[-] jlou@mastodon.social 14 points 11 months ago

What do you mean by valid input?

Both capital and labor are causally efficacious in production. Why would people use them otherwise? Capital is also the fruits of past labor, so denying capital remuneration denies remuneration to the workers that created that capital @asklemmy

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 7 points 11 months ago

I'm with J Lou. Even Marx considered capital a valid input to the production process. He just thought it was being misused.

He believed the workers should control capital democratically. He believed our current treatment of capital (what capital entitles a person to do under our current system) was destroying people's lives and hope and autonomy.

But Marx and Engels actually dedicated several paragraphs of the Communist Manifesto to explaining why capital should not be destroyed during the overthrow of the bourgeoisie -- indicating that they did believe capital to be valuable.

[-] featured@lemmy.ml 25 points 11 months ago

Capitalism is a socioeconomic system in which private individuals (capitalists) own the means of production and employ others to work them. The employer exploits the employed through wage labor, a system in which the surplus value of a laborer is taken as profit for the capitalist. Capitalism is often characterized by market relations and generalized commodity production, but there are always exceptions as in any system.

[-] Xariphon@kbin.social 23 points 11 months ago

I think your first point is the most important: it's a system in which those who own the means of production, those who benefit the most from production, produce nothing.

[-] Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 11 months ago

But they do have the means to produce, so without them the laborers cannot produce on the same level. It should be a mutual relationship that everyone involved should benefit. I think when others say that capitalism is bad, they're referencing the corrupted form of capitalism we have today. A sort of pseudo slavery where corporations and those in power merely gives laborers just enough to survive but not enough to thrive.

[-] Xariphon@kbin.social 15 points 11 months ago

That's capitalism's end goal, though, is slavery. Really it's just feudalism with extra steps.

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 8 points 11 months ago

Wait! @Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com isn't wrong. Also, I think we are miscommunicating with pro-capitalists.

Granted, we both know capitalist propaganda labels basically everything positive about human interactions "capitalism" and then scaremongers about how "the left wants to take THIS away from you!" And that is the main source of our problems communicating with pro-capitalists.

But some responsibility (maybe 20% of the responsibility?) lies with the fact that we choose to label "capital" the problem instead of... you know... the fact that our laws and customs favor a zero-sum employment contract between capital owners and workers where there can be only one winner?

Of course the owner of more capital is always on the better side of this contract, (which is why we identified capital as the problem in the first place.) But labeling the problem "capital" makes it look like we don't see any value to capital. Which isn't true. Marx and Engels dedicated several paragraphs of their manifesto to explaining why the means of production should not be damaged, because the existence of capital leads to abundance, and the means of production is valuable. They didn't want the means destroyed: they simply wanted it democratically owned by workers' cooperatives and state socialism.

The problem is employment contracts that are part of how our society treats the individual, private ownership of capital. Not the idea that capital is a valuable contribution to the production process and deserves reward.

[-] jlou@mastodon.social 3 points 11 months ago

Capital is causally efficacious in workers use of it. However, capital is a dead tool. It cannot be de facto responsible for anything. The person that uses the capital is the one that is de facto responsible for what they do with it positive and negative. Your assumption that critics of capitalism are merely criticizing improper application of fundamentally sound principles is wrong. The sophisticated critiques of capitalism apply even in its "perfect" form found in econ 101 textbooks @asklemmy

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 18 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Hot take, but it's mostly a buzzword at this point. It more productive to talk about wealth distribution and the structure of industry directly, and in which ways they can be good or bad.

[-] arthur@lemmy.zip 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

What is capitalism?

Capitalism is the way we currently organize our society, where a group of people (the ruling class) have ownership over the means of production and, using that, they take the labor value created by the working class. They use their power to control the society, despite democracy, and change its rules to their advantage.

How capitalism strips people of their control over what they produce?

Think about... A factory worker making smartphones. How many they do in a day? How much it does each will cost? How much of it the worker gets? The shareholders that owns the factory will get most of the value as profit, despite the fact that they did not work.

1: No. You made something of value. Capitalists don't create value.

2: Private property is not the same as Ownership of the means of production. Communism don't abolish private property, it abolish ownership of the means of production.

3: You can expand your production by working with other people, as expected. In a communist society you would not be their "boss", and would not get any value from their work for yourself, they will have it.

4: Communism is a way to organize society without exploitation. They may be true for a cooperative, and we need more of that. But the implications of that for the whole society are deeper; democracy may reflect the needs of people better when there are no power disparity between member of the society.

[-] jeena@jemmy.jeena.net 8 points 11 months ago

To be fair, the question was "What is Capitalism" you're mostly answering the question "What is Communism".

[-] arthur@lemmy.zip 6 points 11 months ago

Just on the bonus questions. Lol.

[-] KevinDeRodeTovenaar@feddit.nl 14 points 11 months ago

Capitalism is an economic system wherein production is organised in order to produce a massive commodities, which are sold for a profit, which is then reinvested in the production process with the goal of endless growth of the production.

[-] Banana@sh.itjust.works 5 points 11 months ago

The key here being maximization of profit. It's the very foundation.

[-] squaresinger@feddit.de 12 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I know I am doing your homework here

The reason I am posting this anyway is that I hope you'll learn something from it. Please read it and try to understand it.

The first thing to say here is that capitalism/communism is not a binary thing at all, even though many people (especially from the US) seem to believe.

Instead, there is a whole spectrum between pure capitalism and pure communism. In fact, there has never been any large-scale real-world implementation of either pure capitalism or pure communism.

But let's start with definitions.

Pure capitalism

In a pure capitalistic system, the state basically doesn't exist. This is often called anarchocapitalism, because for pure capitalism to exist, you also need an absence of government => anarchism.

In such a system there is no regulation, no taxes, none of the basic services are provided by a government. Instead, money is king. In pure capitalism money doesn't equal power, it is the only power. There is only a completely free market as the only mechanism that is supposed to balance anything out.

Pure communism

In a pure communist system, there is no private sector and even no private property. The whole power lies solely with the state, money has no meaning. For the state to be able to really govern everything that a capitalist system does with money, it pretty much needs full control over everything.

Why can pure capitalism not work?

In a pure capitalist system, if you have more money, you have more power, which makes it easier to gain more money, and with more money comes more power and so on. Without any regulation the free market is unstable and tends towards monopolies. Basically, once you gain an advantage over your competitors, you can use your money to suppress or buy out your competitors until there are none left. If anyone tries to enter your market segment, you just buy them out or e.g. buy their suppliers. (Google Standard Oil for a good example.)

So for the free market to work, you need to have regulation.

The other side here is that in a completely free market, employers have ample options to exploit their employees. Until they band together, strike/revolt/start a revolution, and make sure that the free market isn't as free any more, meaning that they get treated fairly and get a bigger share.

Why does pure communism not work?

Well, even the Sowjet Union wasn't a pure communistic system. There is some level of personal property that people need to have as an incentive to work. If it doesn't matter what you do at work and you always get the same reward, no matter whether you even show up for work, then your system will also fall apart.

What exists between capitalism and communism?

There's a massive spectrum in between. There are countries that are quite capitalist, like the US. Here you have a mostly capitalist system, but basic services are still provided by the state.

There is social market economy, like many European countries are using. Here you have state-owned companies in all important sectors, that have to compete with private companies. More than just the basic needs are covered by the state.

And then you have something like the UDSSR, which is mostly communist, but you are still allowed to have some private property.

Back to your questions: Since your answer above likely included the word “capital”, what is capital?

Capital is any kind of property belonging to persons, that can be used to influence the behaviour of others by trading. Money, companies, stocks, real estate, basically anything that can be sold. Depending on the specific system, even humans.

How does capitalism empower people to own what they produce? Or, how does capitalism strip people of their control over what they produce?

The question really misses the point. If you have the capital, it the product will belong to you. If you don't, it won't.

Say you are an individual who sells something you create. Are you a capitalist?

Again, misses the point. If you are a slave who produces something and then has the task to sell it for your master, you definitely aren't a capitalist.

If you are the master, who doesn't produce and doesn't sell, but earn from the work of others, then you are a capitalist.

If you are the above person, can you exist in both capitalist society and one in which private property has been abolished?

False dichotomy. Neither a pure capitalst nor a pure communist society exists.

Say you create and sell some product regularly (as above), but have more orders than you can fulfill alone. Is there any way to expand your operation and meet demand without using capitalist methods (such as hiring wage workers or selling your recipes / process to local franchisees for a cut of their proceeds, etc)?

Again, false dichotomy. Cooperation also exists in a communist-oriented (or even a theoretical pure communist) system.

And actually, even in a capitalist-oriented system you don't have to use any of these methods. You can just cooperate with others on a same level. E.g. I build X to sell. I could ask someone to join and that person could run their own business side-by-side doing the same thing. We wouldn't need to have a business partnership at all. Both independently build and sell. Of course, that would mean that I'd have no control over the other guy and I don't earn money from their work. But there's no law telling me I have to.

Is the distinction between a worker cooperative and a more traditional business important? Why is the distinction important?

Yes, google it yourself.___

[-] arvere@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago

I think your misundertand the concept of private property and communism. Which could be skewing your opinion on the matter

[-] sudoreboot@slrpnk.net 4 points 11 months ago

Specifically conflating private and personal property.

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[-] jlou@mastodon.social 9 points 11 months ago

Capitalism has 3 main features:
- Private property (even in land)
- Employer-employee relationships
- Markets

Capitalism is misnamed. Early theorists mistakenly identified capital ownership as the root feature that gave the employer the right to the whole product that workers produce. The employment contract gives the employer the right to the whole product of the firm. Coops correct this. Power leads to employers typically being capital owners, which is why the misnomer stuck. @asklemmy

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[-] TootSweet@latte.isnot.coffee 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

So, first off, let me say that if it'll help us move toward something better than we have now, even if in my head I call it anarcho-communism, I'll happily call it "capitalism."

For reference, there's an author named Charles Eisenstein who in his book "Sacred Economics" advocates for taking steps that he intends to move us (the world, I guess) eventually to a gift-based economy without money or barter. And he calls it capitalism. With a straight face. Now, I don't know if deep down in his heart he believes it actually qualifies as capitalism or if he's calling it capitalism because he feels like his aims are more likely to be well received by pro-capitalists if he calls it "capitalism."

One can IMO go too far with that. Case in point: ecofascism. But I digress.

On to the definition of capitalism. At least in my head, capitalism is characterized by:

  • The profit motive. The incentive to amass. (Typically money, but a barter-based system could well be the same in every way that matters.)
  • Quid pro quo. The whole system is based on it.
  • Private property. A particular set of rules for who has ownership rights over what.
  • The institution of employment.

My answer didn't include the word "capital", so I'll skip that second question.

As to your third question, let me take exception with the question itself. I don't believe "control over what you produce" is necesssarily a good thing per se. I believe in having something roughly like ownership rights over what one uses. But if one produce a surplus, I don't believe they should be able to deprive others in need of said surplus.

I think capitalism coerces people into producing surplus for others to sell for a profit that the producer (employee) doesn't get a fair share in if that goes more to the spirit of your question.

Bonus questions:

  1. I... don't know or care? "Capitalist" can mean someone who supports the institution of capitalism. Or it can mean something like an owner of a company that employs people. I think plenty of people participate in capitalism (by selling things they make, by accepting an employment position, etc) out of necessity while disapproving of the system as a whole. Hell, I'm one of them. I'm not sure I understand why you ask.
  2. If I'm the person who sells things I make? Again, anticapitalists participate in capitalism because capitalism doesn't give them a choice. Does that answer your question?
  3. The word "sell" here has some baggage I don't like. I'm not for a system in which anybody "sells" anything. But to answer how one might expand an operation that produces things, worker cooperatives are probably the most obvious answer.
  4. Anyway, worker cooperatives are owned and run by the workers. Corporations are owned by shareholders and run by boards of directors. Worker cooperatives don't have incentives and power to fuck their workers over. They do have incentive and power to take care of their workers.

Maybe I should have read the first thread you referenced before answering these. Maybe it would have given more context. But hopefully this response gives you what you were looking for.

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Okay, I absolutely love this response. All the way down.

And no, you didn't need to read o_o's thread. My personal summary of it is that people who defined capitalism as, "anything that allows individuals control over the fruits of their labor" and people who defined capitalism as, "the alienation of workers from the fruits of their labor" were talking right past each other, not really understanding that the points they were making only supported their argument if you assumed their definitions were correct.

For reference, there’s an author named Charles Eisenstein who in his book “Sacred Economics” advocates for taking steps that he intends to move us (the world, I guess) eventually to a gift-based economy without money or barter. And he calls it capitalism. With a straight face. Now, I don’t know if deep down in his heart he believes it actually qualifies as capitalism or if he’s calling it capitalism because he feels like his aims are more likely to be well received by pro-capitalists if he calls it “capitalism.”

That is amusing. And yeah. That sounds very pragmatic. Or ignorant. Hard to tell which. But Eisenstein sounds like an interesting character. And like you said, if one needs to call their ideal system "capitalism" to get it implemented, then there's no real crime.

  • the profit motive
  • quid pro quo
  • private property
  • the institution of employment

Solid. I like these components.

As to your third question, let me take exception with the question itself. I don’t believe “control over what you produce” is necesssarily a good thing per se. I believe in having something roughly like ownership rights over what one uses. But if one produce a surplus, I don’t believe they should be able to deprive others in need of said surplus.

That fascinates me. I have always heard the struggle phrased essentially as, "you control your proceeds" vs "someone else controls your proceeds." I didn't realize people were advocating philosophies that bowed to the idea that "needs" should take priority over personal possessions. I'll have to think about that one for a while.

  1. I… don’t know or care? “Capitalist” can mean someone who supports the institution of capitalism. Or it can mean something like an owner of a company that employs people. I think plenty of people participate in capitalism (by selling things they make, by accepting an employment position, etc) out of necessity while disapproving of the system as a whole. Hell, I’m one of them. I’m not sure I understand why you ask.

This answer is wonderful. Again, I like that you acknowledge that the definitions are so varied that they aren't even useful anymore.

The main reason I asked? It was a leading question: my goal was that people's answers would highlight the differences between their definitions. Because, if people could understand why their definitions were fundamentally different, maybe they could understand why they were talking past each other?

I'm not sure if the effort will succeed. But I really liked and appreciated this answer.

[-] TootSweet@latte.isnot.coffee 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I didn't realize people were advocating philosophies that bowed to the idea that "needs" should take priority over personal possessions.

Yeah, I tend to work Maslow's work into my take on political systems. Maybe I should call myself an anarcho-Maslowist or something. Heh.

I do really think that society is best that best fulfills people's needs. And by "needs," I mean something very like the way Maslow used the term. I'm not sure what higher purpose one could give for a society than the fulfillment of needs, really.

(Mind you, I do know that there have been other psychologists who have built on Maslow's work as well as some with different models of needs. I don't necessarily mean to exclude those other definitions of needs. I don't think it would serve us well to be dogmatic about one person's take. But even if Maslow can be improved on, I do think the broad strokes of his take are on to something.)

To be fair, just about any purpose a society might have can be shoehorned into the language of "needs" and that paradigm may be better for some things than others.

Also, of course, more basic needs are more important. If you're trying to improve things and you have one option that will address society's unfulfilled need for basic sustinence and another option that will improve society's access to aesthetic fulfillment, let's fill people's bellies first and put up murals later.

Now, I do largely believe in "usership," but the idea can definitely go too far. If in the revolution, Ted takes possession of a mansion and uses it daily for a private indoor jogging track, that's fine with me so long as others are not deprived of some sufficiently basic need. Under a strict usership system, one could say that Ted uses all of that mansion daily and that there is no "surplus" of space there. And, again if others are not deprived, I have no issue with it. But if homelessness exists in that area, Ted's claim to that mansion for his comparatively frivolous use of the structure is superceded by other people's right to not have to live in a tent under a bridge.

But this is all mostly my own take. I don't think I've seen anyone else take quite the same stance on things. But then, I haven't really read that much anarchist theory either. Just Conquest of Bread and /r/Anarchism, pretty much. (Oh, and some random guy on a first person shooter I used to play a lot that was my introduction to anarchism.)

Edit: Oh! Also, there is the whole "to each according to need" thing. Maybe Marx would've been a fan of Maslow's ideas. Who knows.

[-] Talidos@ttrpg.network 5 points 11 months ago

I'll toss my two cents in

What is capitalism?

Capitalism is a form of economy where individuals are allowed to obtain, keep, and distribute capital as they see fit, so long as they have the means to do so.

What is capital

Capital is a combination of property and money. Property being the things you own, with money being a measure of potential property you don't yet own.

How does capitalism empower people to own what they produce?

It's at the core of the concept. Individuals are allowed to obtain, keep, and distribute capital as they see fit. You and you alone own your capital.

I see a lot of comments saying workers are not allowed to own what they produce. That their employer takes it from them. I feel this is flawed and possibly comes from a place of frustration. So let me ask this: What does an employed worker produce?

If that worker is a self employed craftsman making sprockets, the answer's clear. They produce sprockets. They can then go out and sell those sprockets for goods, services, or money as they see fit.

If that worker is employed by a sprocket making company; they still make sprockets, but that's not what they produce. They produce labor. Which they've chosen to sell to the sprocket company for money and/or other benefits. They may not care about sprockets themselves, don't go to sprocket conventions, and certainly don't want to deal with figuring out how to sell all the sprockets they're making. It's a better deal to sell your labor and use the profit you make off your employer to do the things that actually interest you. It's your employer's job to handle everything else.

Note that selling your labor is no different than selling capital. You set the price you're willing to accept, and your employers (who are your consumers) can accept that price or not. That doesn't mean you can set your price at any number and expect it to stick. Just like how the price of sprockets is dependent on consumer need and competitive prices, so is the price of your labor.

Bonus Questions!

Say you are an individual who sells something you create. Are you a capitalist?

If you also exist in a capitalist economy, then yes.

If you are the above person, can you exist in both capitalist society and one in which private property has been abolished?

No. Capitalism cannot exist if you don't have control over your own property.

Say you create and sell some product regularly (as above), but have more orders than you can fulfill alone. Is there any way to expand your operation and meet demand without using capitalist methods (such as hiring wage workers or selling your recipes / process to local franchisees for a cut of their proceeds, etc)?

Yes. Ideally you raise your prices so fewer people buy your product while you still make the same profit as if you were filling those extra orders. Alternatively, you can work to optimize your production methods to create more product in the same amount of time. Be it finding more efficient methods you can practice to make each product, or creating or purchasing equipment which can make each product faster. The balance between price and optimization is up to you.

Is the distinction between a worker cooperative and a more traditional business important? Why is the distinction important?

It's a term to describe a type of business. No different than "corporation" or "partnership" or "nonprofit", among others. The distinction's important in that there's value in being able to describe different types of businesses.

[-] jemorgan@lemm.ee 7 points 11 months ago

I think this answer misses the mark a little bit with regards to the context of what it is about capitalism that causes so much controversy.

People who critique capitalism aren’t usually advocating for an economic system completely devoid of private ownership (though some are). They’re often raising issue with a certain type of capital ownership.

Say you’re the owner of a sprocket manufacturing corporation, and I’m a worker. You yourself don’t work, you just inherited a sprocket empire from your grandfather, who founded that sprocket empire using funds from selling his emerald mines that were worked by slaves.

I put in an honest days work 5 days a week, and in those 5 days, I produce $2000 worth of sprockets. It costs $10 per week to maintain the sprocket machines, $10 per week for electrical power to cover my sprocket making activities, $30 per week to repay the loan that was taken to build the factory, and $50 per week in other miscellaneous expenses needed to allow me to make sprockets.

That means that of the $2000 worth of sprockets I produced, $1900 of profit was generated.

You pay me a salary of $500 per week, and collect $1400 per week from my (and each other laborer’s) work.

The point of criticism is that you’re accumulating wealth, which other people had to work to produce, without doing any work yourself. You’re simply a parasitic freeloader on society because of an arbitrary concept of “ownership” over something that you don’t use personally.

Some responses to these criticisms include the following:

“You should just negotiate for a higher salary, or go work somewhere that’s paying more.”

This is the example from classical economic theory, and there are a whole handful of reasons that it doesn’t work. The voluntary exchange between a worker and a capitalist (meaning one who owns the means of production) isn’t actually (fully) voluntary. A worker who finds his working conditions unsatisfactory can’t reasonably just choose not to work. The threat of financial ruin, homelessness, and starvation act as a metaphorical gun to the head of the laborer giving the capitalist a significant negotiating advantage.

Add to this the fact that it’s been theorized and demonstrated that capitalism tends toward regulatory capture and monopoly, and you have a situation where the means of production become more and more concentrated in the hands of a group of elites, while the workers’ bargenaining power becomes weaker and weaker due to less competition in the labor market.

“The capitalist deserves the profits that they extract because of [this work that they’ve done]”

If the owner of the factory is functioning as a floor manager, they should be paid a fair salary for being a floor manager. If they’re working as a director, they are entitled to a director’s salary. These critiques of capitalism aren’t saying that there should be no hierarchy in an enterprise (though some alternatives to capitalism do call for that). Just that the only people who are entitled to the wealth from something that’s produced are those who are working to produce it.

This same thing goes for other forms of capital ownership too, by the way. Landlords are a classical example. I’ve heard it claimed that landlords are entitled to their rents because many of them work so hard at repairs and managing their properties. They’re totally entitled to be compensated for any labor they engage in, but the wealth that they extract from tenants far exceeds the value of the labor that they supply. Which is kind of the whole point of rental property, if “investors” couldn’t extract a passive income (income in excess of work performed), they wouldn’t be buying homes and then renting them out.

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[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I see a lot of comments saying workers are not allowed to own what they produce. That their employer takes it from them. I feel this is flawed and possibly comes from a place of frustration.

That's not frustration. The viewpoint you are describing (that workers are not allowed to own what they produce) actually comes from a different definition of "capital" and "capitalism" than the one you are using. And that difference in definitions is why I created this post. And I appreciate your answer. It lets me highlight the differences in definitions and the consequences of those differences. Because in the case of capitalism, the difference in definitions are actually more important than any difference in values or priorities.

You noted that people are saying "workers aren't allowed to own what they produce in capitalism." But those people are not referring to capitalism as you have defined it.

Capital

Capital is a combination of property and money. Property being the things you own, with money being a measure of potential property you don’t yet own.

I'm sorry, but no one who disagrees with you thinks that the ability to accrue property and money deprive workers of control over what they produce. Not even Marx and Engels. Not even Mao or Stalin. Certainly, property and money can we wielded in such a way that they become capital. But until then, property and money are merely wealth.

The definition used by people like Marx and Engels -- or by the entire field of economics -- is: capital is property that allows or speeds up the production of goods. A mine. An oil rig. A McDonalds burger conveyor-belt-oven-thingy. A 3D printer. In other words, the word "capital" is about the function of the property. Not its value. A painting can cost $1,000,000 and still not become capital. Because no one will ever operate that painting to cook burgers. Or to mine ores.

Capitalism

Now "the ability to own commodity-producing property" is still not quite sufficient for a system to become "capitalism." In fact, Marx and Engels didn't want any capital to be destroyed at all in the overthrow of the bourgeoisie. Because even under the definition of "capital" that communists still to this day believe in, the existence of capital and ownership of it are still not inherently a source of coercion.

There's another crucial piece to the puzzle that leads to people complaining about the whole system:

In capitalism as a system, some form of employment contract always allows the owner of capital to own everything produced using that capital.

For example, the oil rig owner -- according to employment contracts -- owns all of the oil produced using the oil rig. But not only did the owner not need to work the rig to extract the oil: the owner also did not need to weld the seams or turn the screws to build the oil rig. All the owner needs is official ownership of the oil rig and a system that acknowledges their right to everything the oil rig produces, (regardless of who needed to input their labor to turn the oil rig into anything other than a metal sculpture in the ocean.) and with those two things, they are entitled to all of the proceeds of the rig.

Now, hopefully, you can see that, provided a worker has entered into such a contract, "workers are not allowed to own what they produce" is not a statement born from frustration: it's just true by definition. It's not saying "the worker is NEVER allowed to own anything they ever create in this society." It's saying: "within the relationship laid out by the employment contract, the worker who operates capital is not entitled to the direct consequences of their labor."

Now, whether the worker benefits from this arrangement is another picture, but in accepting an employment contract, the worker is entering into a dynamic where they do not own the outcome of their own labor.

Bonus Question #4

Which is why bonus question #4 (the difference between a workers' cooperative and a company that uses these employment contracts) is extremely important to understanding the consequences of the difference between these definitions. You even touched on its importance in your earlier replies, saying yourself:

If that worker is employed by a sprocket making company; they still make sprockets, but that’s not what they produce. They produce labor. Which they’ve chosen to sell to the sprocket company for money and/or other benefits

(Aside: what you're describing here is literally Marx's theory of alienation.) But more importantly,

I'm assuming the sprocket company "produces" sprockets by your definition of "produce." Well, in a workers' co-op, the workers vote in the decisions of the company. They elect the CEO (if there is one) and the managers. They take shares of the profits. They are the company. And if the workers are the company, and the company produces sprockets, then the workers are once again -- just like if they were self-employed, but with the benefits of efficiency and networking that come from being part of an organization -- producing sprockets. They are no longer (as Marx would say) alienated from the results of their labor.

In other words, the co-op is a form of self-employment according to the definitions you appear to be using. Which makes the distinction between cooperatives and other kinds of companies... massive.

The people saying, "capitalism strips workers of the results of their labor" love workers' co-ops. Love them. Despite you probably defining the workers' cooperative as "another example of capitalism", not even avowed Marxists would in any circumstance suggest that the worker co-op "disallows workers from owning what they produce." In fact, they strongly believe the opposite. To them (and to Marx himself) the worker cooperative operates under an entire opposing paradigm to the worker contract. And to them, it is therefore a rival philosophy to capitalism.

You don't have to accept their definitions. You don't need to believe Marxist definitions are correct. You can believe co-ops are capitalist all you want.

But please: try to understand that when people criticize "capitalism," they are (I 100% guarantee) referring to something far more narrow and far more specific than what you call capitalism.

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[-] jlou@mastodon.social 4 points 11 months ago

The workers do produce sprockets and are jointly de facto responsible for them. A group is de facto responsible for a result if it is a purposeful result of their joint intentional actions. Responsibility cannot be cut off like this just like it cannot be cut off at the trigger pull and ignore the resulting crime. The sprockets are a purposeful result.

Selling labor is different. I can transfer capital and the person can use it independently of me, but I can't do so with myself @asklemmy

[-] jmp242@sopuli.xyz 5 points 11 months ago

Capitalism seems to be a system where people try to obtain ever larger amounts of some store of value, and use that store of value to enable that.

I may have managed to avoid using capital above, but I think capital is a store of value that a person controls via ownership concepts.

I think capitalism inherently enables people to earn what they produce, it seems like it's almost a fundamental of it. The problem is just that people with more capital can coerce and rig the system against people with less capital. Therefore someone who already has capital gets more capital increase from a task than someone with less capital would get for the same task in many situations.

Say you are an individual who sells something you create. Are you a capitalist? Yes If you are the above person, can you exist in both capitalist society and one in which private property has been abolished? Presumably no. If there's no ownership or private property, how do you sell something? Can you sell something you don't own or have permission from the owner to sell? Say you create and sell some product regularly (as above), but have more orders than you can fulfill alone. Is there any way to expand your operation and meet demand without using capitalist methods Probably not if you use a strict definition. The state, or other group could form to do so, but I'd argue it's not you making that decision. Is the distinction between a worker cooperative and a more traditional business important? Define "important". and Important to who?

I'd say it's meaningful because it is like democracy vs authoritarianism, but in terms of the actual real world pressures driving potentially similar behavior, I'm not sure how "important" it is. A worker cooperative might tend to treat employees better, might not choose some ways to compete that a traditional business would, and probably values other things than strictly make the most amount of profit for the investors. But does this rise to importance if the collective has to act in certain ways to remain competitive in the market? I would bet it depends on whether we're talking from the perspective of the employees or customers or society or the market.

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[-] lntl@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 11 months ago

Capitalism is an economic system founded in private ownership of land, natural resouces, goods, services, etc.

[-] Nemo@slrpnk.net 7 points 11 months ago

That mostly predates capitalism, though.

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 4 points 11 months ago

According to us anti-capitalists it predates capitalism. According to a good number of people, the definition of capitalism is basically... anything involving money.

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[-] moobythegoldensock@geddit.social 3 points 11 months ago
  1. No

  2. No

  3. Yes

  4. Yes

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this post was submitted on 21 Jul 2023
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