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Well, it's crystal clear half of the population is stupid, hateful, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, and so frightened they need a daddy to tell them what to think and do. To protect them from those people.
Leave, if you can. America as we know it is over. Welcome to The Oligarchic Theocratic Fourth Reich.
We have to do both things. we have to get everyone we possibly can paying attention and work on peaceful ways to move ideas forward. i'm gonna keep saying make unions the base of* the dems. and point to minnesota who still has the democratic farmer labor party and pulles off some neat* shit.
there simply are not enough people available to do it quickly. it always ends with the people we claim to want to help being hurt. and we end up piled on top of them by some authoritarian we made a deal with.
now if you want to discuss disruptive actions that could need to be taken over the next few years. especially while throwing out the word arming. i'd like to kindly remind you we are in an armed police state on a Public. Fucking. Server. and point out that molitivcocktail hour does not announce itself and is never the option WE choose.
I'm not an American, but I can't help but notice something:
A clear majority elected Trump. Over 71 million Americans went out of their way to vote for him, saying "I am proud to be a Nazi."
If you are going to fight (either figuratively or physically), then understand that a majority of the USA supports a fascist state.
71 million in a country of 262 million adults. 27% voted for fascism. 74 million voted for trump in 2020. This wasn't a shit towards fascism, but the opposition party utterly failing to win voters.
The country has never been majority rule. Every modern election has split the country in thirds, about a third votes one way, a third votes the other and a third choses not to vote.
Over 70% of voting aged americans did not vote for trump.
Unless you make voting mandatory, that will always be the case. Regardless, the split amongst non-voters is statistically likely to be the same as the people who actually voted. Consider the election to be an information poll, with a sample size of ~65% of the entire eligible population.
So with updated numbers, Trump got 72.5M out of ~240M eligible voters, so yeah you could say that 70% of the population didn't vote for him. But then to be clear, you should also look at Harris's 68M votes, and say that 72% of the population didn't vote for her.
The people who mark and deposit their ballots are the only measure we have of the nation's opinion, and in that contest a majority of the votes went to Trump.
And over 70% of eligible voters didn't vote against Trump.
It's disappeared ballots and a bought electoral college.
Wait, did Trump win with 27% of votes!? How do you still use this system?
No, that's a misleading number.
27% of the entire eligible population voted for him. Less than that voted for Harris. About 45% of eligible voters didn't bother.
So Trump got more than 50% of the popular vote, as well as the majority of seats. First past the poll is a terrible system, but it's not the system that's at fault here, it's the voters.
No, he got >50% of all votes that were cast. The voting system wasn't the problem this time, the voters were.
If the voters are the problem every time, the problem probably isn't the voters, it's probably the system. The US always has bad turnout.
A turnout between 60 and 70% is actually pretty standard for a Western democracy without mandatory voting.
The voting system wasn't the issue, here. The people around you are.
Tradition dear boy
I understand that wholeheartedly. But I personally refuse to be one of those people that sit back while everything deteriorates. When Hitler was elected a majority did nothing, but many chose resistance. I refuse to be the majority who live as cowards under fascism, so if that means I die resisting then so be it.
I don't think you actually did get my point.
The fascists are the majority. The majority will do nothing because they chose this, and you - the people fighting fascism - are in the minority.
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but it is important to understand that your revolution is actually going against the will of the American people.
I personally wish I could just leave, but most countries won't accept a useless factory worker like myself... I'm quickly realizing this isn't my country. This is a country of Nazis.
These are the people that hear complaints that the entire yard is covered in rakes, but until they step on one and have it smack them in the face then it isn't a problem. I'm sick of living with selfish Nazis.
Hitler never even got close to a majority in any election. That's the scary part about this: Trump didn't even have to seize power, the population just handed it to him.
I mean what you saw last night is exactly why your revolutionary movement will be snuffed out. If the fascist has that kind of popular support, there is no revolution, only martyrdom. Maybe civil war.
Australian here. I see in America a similar pattern than what happens here, one party (conservative) receives a functioning government and proceeds to fuck things up with absurd policies while at the same time immediately claiming credit for the state of the country as soon as they get into power. Takes years to change the momentum of a country and by the time a new party is elected the country is almost bottoming out at which point the new (left leaning) party spends most of their first term fixing things up only to get blamed at the next election for being in power when things turned to shit. The electorate will never understand that a new government needs years to undo the fuck ups of the likes of the GOP. This time the Dems haven’t had enough time to fix up all the stupid shit the GOP did last time so I expect these next 4 years the country to hit rock bottom while the GOP is still in power and it will sadly be a moment of “Americans got what they voted for”
This happens in the US, Canada, and many other western democracies.
The difference this time is that it's not just the GOP being shitty, it's an unhinged Nazi who just got elected, and has spent four years purging the party of unfaithful.
That has been happening here (US) for decades. The real problem is the escalation of stupid shit that Republicans do is on an exponential growth trajectory.
It was going to take decades to recover from how badly Trump fucked up the government last time he was in power, and the economy was only just starting to recover. With another term, its unlikely we'll be able to recover within my lifetime, my children will be left worse off than me.
First of all, I'm not from the USA so take this with a grain of salt, but are you suggesting the election was rigged or fraudulent? Because if not you're the one trying to impose an authoritative regime. Like it or not he was elected democratically, and this time you can't even use the excuse that your voting system is weird because he also got the majority of votes. So the majority of people in your country think that he's the correct person for the job, or in any case don't oppose him.
So what you're talking about is for a minority to raise arms against the democratically elected government. You are the one who's being anti-democratic. Even if you were to win the revolution you would need to put a tyrant in power because calling a new election would result in the same outcome.
Like it or not the majority of the people in your country are stupid enough to either want that or not caring. That's one of the dangers of democracy, but starting a revolution to remove a democratically elected president in the name of democracy is just as dumb.
but are you suggesting the election was rigged or fraudulent?
no.
Because if not you're the one trying to impose an authoritative regime.
also no, I'm advocating for community organizing against a very obviously fascist regime. im advocating for mutual aid and self reliance. y'know, the things people who are typically targeted by fascists need.
So what you're talking about is for a minority to raise arms against the democratically elected government.
again, not what I'm saying.
Even if you were to win the revolution you would need to put a tyrant in power because calling a new election would result in the same outcome.
not necessarily?
That's one of the dangers of democracy, but starting a revolution to remove a democratically elected president in the name of democracy is just as dumb.
nowhere did i say i was fighting in the name of democracy. I do think democracy is generally good, although i do not view the US as a democratic country. but that's not what im advocating for at all in this. I'm advocating for genuine survival under an oppressive regime and solidarity amongst the people against tyranny. if shit gets real bad, do i think it's just to fight against it and resist? absolutely. but as I've said in other comments, the American people aren't close to that yet. we need to organize first.
Yeah, nah.
Don’t tolerate intolerance, same goes with authoritarians, use force to remove them.
Seems like you're advocating:
I don't really know if this is a "I can't really say what I'm advocating for because I'll be banned, so I'm dancing around the issue and hoping you'll stochastically pick up on what I'm not saying" thing either.
Without knowing more concretely what you suggest we do, I don't really have a take on whether I agree or not.
Are you expecting someone to provide you with all the answers?
Organize literally anything; a labor union, tenant union, alternatives to capital, a community garden, etc. Getting involved means doing whatever you have the capacity to do. Sometimes organizing is long and challenging, sometimes it's short and sweet. The thing is, there's different recommendations for different types of organizing. A post like this really can't get any more specific, because organizing is actually that broad of a topic.
Arm yourself to defend yourself and others from random acts of political violence. Use the arms to defend drag time story hour. Use the arms to protect the people you care about. Use the arms to watch cops. Get a gun, learn how to use it, and then only use it in emergency self defense. Having a substantial presence of guns at a protest against capital is already self defense, because cops know they can't push the crowd too much. That's why you shouldn't wait for tanks to be rolling through before you arm yourself.
Mutual aid is part of organizing, and will become incredibly important over the next few years. If you want more insight then I recommend reading Kropotkin's book on the matter.
If you're looking for someone to follow, I recommend following yourself and your ideals. It's very obvious that the point of the post is to take action, not to follow OP.
Are you expecting someone to provide you with all the answers?
Only to explain the answers that they're already bringing up.
And, honestly, your answer and OP's answer are exactly the sort of answers I needed. Thank you.
I guess the short restatement is something like "work with others to create an alternative to depending on the capitalist/fascist system for crumbs and then protect that alternative system on a self-defense basis with firearms. (And be ready to before you actually have to.)"
"Get organized/involved" - What's that mean in more practical terms? Start attending social gatherings put on/hosted by radical leftist organizations? And maybe start ones if they don't exist in your area?
"Start organizing" - Same as that first bullet?
"Get involved in mutual aid" - Yeah, ok. I've read Eisenstein. I know his book Sacred Economics has some tips for how to get involved with existing mutual aid organizations. I definitely need to re-read that bit and read other sources about that. But at least I have an idea where to start with some of that, I guess. I'd still like more specifics on what in particular you mean by this, though.
Get involved with local organizations, preferably radically left (because otherwise your options are more centrist or conservative, which imo is how we ended up here), that will help you set up mutual aid networks for basic resources and protection. Organize your communities so people have a support structure that isn't dependent on our broken and corrupt system so that they feel comfortable protesting and resisting tyranny. Build it up so that within the networks you have access to secure communications, free access to information, basic necessities and resources (i.e. food, water, healthcare, medicine, etc.), and planning for resistance and direct action.
"Get armed" - So, acquire firearms. To use in some particular way? (You mentioned you're not advocating for "acts of violence or an insurrection like January 6th", so not that, apparently.) Or just to have for when "something" happens? If so, what specifically?
"Don't wait until troops are rolling down the street to stage a resistance" - 'K. Not really helpful until I understand more specifically what you're advocating for people to do.
"Get involved with resistance" - So, let's say you're a respected voice in a mutual aid radical anarchist collective with guns and enthusiasm. What do you suggest they do?
"Stand, fight, and maybe even die" - How? Not January 6th, but... how then?
"Don't do nothing"/"Don't lay down and accept our fate" - Not really helpful on its own if we don't know what you're suggesting we do instead of "doing nothing" or "laying down and accepting our fate."
Get armed, trained, and be prepared to fight so that you can protect those mutual aid networks when the fascists come to dismantle them. Be prepared to fight and lay down your life for those in your community who are bigger targets (i.e. women, people of color, queer and gender non-conforming people, immigrants, etc.) just as you would want them to do for you. As much as possible, become a unified force against the tyranny.
I'm not advocating for random acts of violence or Jan 6th like action because yes that would get me banned, but that also will not be an effective form of resistance. Effective resistance will need to be directed, organized, and focused with specific goals. At some point that may look like fighting a revolutionary war or a coup, but the American people need to crawl before they start walking, let alone run. We need to build strong communities, whether virtual or physical, where we can support each other and try to minimize the harm being done.
Yeah, good answers. Thank you.
No problemo, i welcome the feedback and criticism. Thank you for engaging in a good discussion
Bold of you to assume I have my shit together enough to do any of this. Sounds nice though, and I wish you all the best.
It's been more than enough for a while now.
When it becomes a direct mild inconvenience, people will be fed up, maybe.
What is the goal you're trying to achieve? A more democratic government?
Cause it sure as hell looks like the majority of the population isn't against fascism anymore.
What is the goal you're trying to achieve? A more democratic government?
That'd be great but I think at this point achieving something other than fascism would be nice.
Right now. I'm done with this shit.
you're sincerely asking americans, when is enough? dude
When's the last time you face to face hung out with someone who has a different political opinion than yours?
Often. I make it a point to engage with viewpoints different than mine because my perspective is paper thin, and only by understanding others can I hope to expand it.
That being said, I am having a tremendously difficult time understanding how we can willingly just invite fascism (I understand how it happened, I just can't understand how people actually let this happen).
I'm armed, and competent with arms.
If I smelled burning flesh near a prison I'd have to kill myself right then.