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yeah before I knew about this I always liked him with an asterisk. he's smart and entertaining, but he's a libertarian. I couldn't dislike him though because whenever he spoke he always seemed progressive, humble and empathetic, unlike libertarians. then I recently learned he denounced libertarianism. and now there's no asterisk. I like the guy.
also p&t have been hosting the best talent show for more than a decade.
I'm really glad to see this.
Penn Jillette played a big role in who I am today. Bullshit! helped shape my skepticism in my late teens, and I was fascinated with magic even earlier than that. I went on to adopt some libertarian views and listened to his podcast for years, but I grew away from him during COVID because I was seeing how his position was harming people. I always thought he was a smart respectable guy, so seeing him reflect and change is heartwarming.
I've been rewatching Bullshit! recently and found myself disagreeing with him quite a lot. I used to like the show a lot, and the same as you it helped build my skepticism. Some episodes are still good, some have aged terribly.
Which episodes?
They had a pretty shitty take on wealth redistribution
Also compared social security to a pyramid scheme
I don't love their stance on gun regulations
They do have some pretty based takes though. They're against the death penalty, and they've always been right about vaccines
Yikes, I haven't seen the wealth distro one in a while.
I'm still firmly in the 2nd amendment camp, especially given the current climate.
Thanks for the links
Yeah, I'm of two minds on 2a. On the one hand, in a country where anyone could have a gun, everyone should, and if they start trying to round up political dissidents to put in camps, I should hope that enough of us have guns that we can successfully prevent it.
On the other hand, we are the only country where school shootings regularly happen. A 16 year old kid was shot to death at a high school two days ago, and I didn't even know about it until I looked it up.
This is the one topic where I do not know where I stand. I don't know if the very real, very present innocent people dying on a regular basis is worth the potential to resist tyranny, should the need arise.
Second hand smoke and the Walmart episodes I disagreed pretty heavily one.
The college one had some fallacies in their arguments.
"'But without religion, people would rape and murder all they want!' I already do rape and murder all I want. And that number is ZERO, because I have no desire to rape and murder!" - Penn Jillette
Also: When playing the Devil's Advocate in the argument that vaccines cause autism, using the made up figures of the rate that supposedly happens, still showing how it's more harmful to not vaccinate if only 1 out of every 10 people get autism, there's still thousands of deaths caused by curable diseases from not vaccinating.
I've always had a lot of respect for Penn's sincere "individual freedoms as long as they don't infringe on the individual freedoms of others" brand of libertarinism that advocated still caring about other people, and isn't about just deferring to corporations
I'm not surprised he no longer identifies with libertarianism, given what it's increasingly come to mean. I may not look at the world exactly the same as him or always agree with him but people with sincere principles always have my respect.
The way he and Teller made a show to basically showcase other magicians is super cool. If you look up Penn & Teller: Fool Us on YouTube you'll see tons of magicians publishing their segments on the show on their personal channels, which must mean Penn and Teller negotiated that performers would have rights to their own performances and can publish them themselves.
Thats fucking cool. (Also a great show, it makes a great YouTube binge!)
That's what I thought libertarianism was until my mid 20s. That's seriously what I was taught that it was to be a Texan. If you don't like what your neighbor is up to, don't fucking look. The issue is that dumb motherfuckers keep expanding on what they think "infringing on the individual freedoms of others" means. Now it just means "anything I don't like".
Hell, I'm still anti-authoritarian for individuals (companies should be heavily regulated). If you're not hurting someone else I don't really care what you're doing. Anyone that does has too much time on their hands.
Hell, I'm still anti-authoritarian for individuals (companies should be heavily regulated).
That's more or less my political ideology. "I think gay married couples should be allowed to protect their weed farms with guns." But as soon as it comes to income, I'm hardcore authoritarian. Don't even get me started on how I feel about rental properties. What I have to say about landlords could get me a visit from an FBI party van
This is because modern political libertarianism was literally financed by fossil fuel and tobacco billionaires who opposed all regulations; especially health, environmental, and labor. They seized libertarianism as a means to destroy the government. Prior to their takeover in the 70's, Libertarianism was considered to be progressive.
Most libertarians don't know what libertarianism is, because they are conservatives who believe their narcissistic "fuck you, got mine" conservatism is libertarianism.
Yeah, I was really confused when I used to identify with libertarianism, and got lumped in with conservatives. I always hated those authoritarians, and the corporations they rode in on.
Yeah, I am quite certain the majority of humans are libertarian — the live and let live, without hurting each other, kind — but I never call myself libertarian to anyone without a massive disclaimer.
You can't even say "socialist libertarian"... because that sounds like an oxymoron to people. They have no concept of what it means... then you have to explain that socialism can't exist without democracy... then you have to explain how wealth is power and extreme wealth inequality, where one individual can own more than thousands or millions of people, results in individuals having more power and influence than thousands/millions of people, and is a direct threat to the life and liberty of those people.
It's ultimately better off not saying any of the buzzwords at all. Thanks, conservatism...
I think you (past you at least) would have identified as a libertarian socialist and those other idiots are libertarian anarchists.
Hey, happy lemmy anniversary, I'm glad you're here! ❤️
Anarchism is the better version of libertarianism. Left-anarchism gives all of the liberties but without capitalism. If only capitalist realists could get past that hurdle.
I need to learn more about anarchism as a political philosophy, I have little grasp of like, what it actually means in practice
by its nature there's a lot of free content online.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works isn't a bad start.
The works of Kropotkin are on there as well. Conquest of Bread is a banger.
I can't get behind anarchism because there will literally always be antisocial people seeking to hurt others, physically or not. Anarchism either ignores that reality or hopes those evil people willingly attend treatment programs that hopefully make them stop hurting others. Murder, rape, theft, war, etc.
That's not necessarily true, those people can be banished from a community or even violently resisted depending on your flavor.
And even if you take your statement as fact, isn't that a much easier problem to solve than what we're dealing with now? Maybe some limited prisons for the worst offenders might be our only compromise
Banished how? They can just re enter.
Violently resisted how? Lynch mob?
I agree that limited prisons is preferable to the current US system but you've essentially just reinvented government and police in all but name.
Positions of power like that in anarchist societies are usually held in rotation or fully democratically.
i gotta be honest with you, do you really think no anarchist philosopher ever thought of that?
not exactly, it's not theoretical this is how stuff has worked before. someone can be banished from a society and become a persona non grata that can't get support from anyone.
you're acting as if something that's actually in our history is unimaginable
Very similar to my journey though no one asked me to speak anywhere and I had the privilege of being able to change my mind entirely out of the public eye.
Much respect for this.
It takes a lot of strength to change what was probably a core part of your identity - I respect your change.
Was libertarian in college. Realized that a key facet of libertarian thinking involves the ideas that “government is a necessary evil” and that “government exists to keep one person’s freedoms from infringing on another’s.” Which led me to consider that if it’s a necessary evil then government should work for the majority of people. Further, government’s “umpire” role should apply to the rich since their freedoms are often infringing on mine and others’ (and wealth is a form of power that needs its own checks).
Anyway, I think I lean more toward communitarian politics nowadays.
Libertarianism has roots in socialism. The term has been coopted by anarcho capitalists. You're right with your analysis IMO. You can't be free with authoritarian politics and/or authoritarian economy. Capitalism is very authoritarian.
I'm so glad. Good for him. I was a bit cooled down on him for a while because of this tbh
This old Toothpaste for Dinner comic is all I can think about when someone says they're a libertarian. It's got me this far.
Funny that an anti-mask group asked him to speak considering that him and Teller filmed this. https://youtu.be/RfdZTZQvuCo
That's the first thing I thought of, did they not watch the bullshit episode on vaccines? Penn and Teller are provaccine you chods lol
Apparently they didn't do their research
Wouldn't be the first time.
Thanks for sharing
Don’t scare me like this. More context in the title!!
Sorry bb.
Remember for next time
Holy shit he's 6' 7"???
He's so tall he looks life-size from the cheap seats.
He's so tall, he looks life-size on my phone screen
SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
Fuck libertarians.