this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2023
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103
The misguided stories Americans tell themselves about Israel and Palestine (www.motherjones.com)
submitted 10 months ago by return2ozma@lemmy.world to c/politics@lemmy.world
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[–] TinyPizza@kbin.social 37 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

From the article:

Israel has created a “permanent condition” for Palestinians in which “one state ruled by one group of people rules over another group of people.” They argue that it is counterproductive to continue to see Israel-Palestine through a two-state framework, given the Israeli-dominated reality that exists on the ground.

There’s an understandable impression that can come from the coverage of the October 7 attack that Israel and Palestine had been at peace, and now suddenly they’re at war. Was the Israeli occupation peaceful for Palestinians prior to October 7?

An expert who gets it. This article was wonderful. Certainly worth the read! Thank you for posting!

[–] Riccosuave@lemmy.world 14 points 10 months ago

/agree x 10,000%

This is the single best piece of media I have read regarding this conflict. It should be mandatory reading for every single person in the United States at a minimum.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

We've seen this movie before

This guy gets it.

Also he's especially right about the American interests part. As an Egyptian I currently want Egypt to ally itself with China so we can stop relying on American aid and maybe can actually do something about this mess.

[–] Hyperreality@kbin.social 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

China certainly 'solved' their Gaza in Xinjiang.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you about the US being shit, but I suppose there's some truth to the idiom that a drowning man will clutch on to a straw.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Oh I definitely don't think China is good. But since Israel is an American ally it's in their best interests to oppose them geopolitically. We'd probably end up helping Palestine more than we are with the spineless cowards in charge sucking US and Israeli dick.

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

I think the US hegemony is pretty shitty, but then I think about how this would all go under a Chinese hegemony and realize it could be far, far worse. At least the US and it's allies have a veneer of humanity.

And the idea of "aid" from China is ludicrous. They only do things for a quid pro quo, like the Belt and Roadways scam.

[–] DanL4@lemmy.world -5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Ignoring so many details, such as what side caused camp David talks not to work? What side refused at least two offers to get practically all they asked for.

When was the west bank so overpopulates with Israeli settlements? (only in recent years when Israelis giving up on any potential partner on the paelstinian side started voting more right wing until we got a series of terrible governments in which everyone tried to out-right the other to enlarge their base of voters)

It mentions but ignores Gaza isn't occupied. And if this is what happens when Israel unilaterally leaves territory for Palestinians, who on earth would dream of ever leaving the west bank??? Have you seen the Israeli map? Giving up the west bank (which I'm in favour of) without piece would be suicide - Israel is tiny with or without it, there is no strategic way of defending israel from attacks from the west bank - it's geographic centre.

Palestinians are victims of their leaders who decided to enrich themselves instead of fixing Gaza and to put the huge sums of cash sent from Europe and some Arab countries into weapons instead of creating a livable state. People have been refugees for three generations there. Where else in the world is there a second generation refugee?? Who chose to keep them this way? Israel? Who hasn't been there since 2007?

Blaming every single problem in Gaza on Israel is idiotic and will keep this situation static forever.

The west bank is a much more complicated problem, made worse because of the many Israeli settlements that were added in recent years, and maybe made impossible due to the October 7 attacks from Gaza. There is no sane Israeli prime minister or government, be it right or ultra left wing, that would dream of pulling back and giving autonomy to an extreme jihadist movement like hamas. They just proved they are as good as isis, but somehow get support from leftist organisations all over the world.

[–] TechyDad@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Palestinians are victims of their leaders who decided to enrich themselves instead of fixing Gaza and to put the huge sums of cash sent from Europe and some Arab countries into weapons instead of creating a livable state. People have been refugees for three generations there. Where else in the world is there a second generation refugee?? Who chose to keep them this way? Israel? Who hasn't been there since 2007?

This part doesn't get talked about enough. Hamas was elected in 2006 (by a plurality, not a majority). After that, they cancelled future elections. They use violence against anyone who opposes them.

Their leaders don't live in Gaza. They are billionaires living in Qatar. When aid comes in, some gets funneled off to the pockets of the leaders. Some gets put into weapons. And a few coins are tossed at the populace.

Anyone who claims to be pro-Palestinian and pro-Hamas is against the Palestinian people. The Palestinians deserve the chance to vote in free and fair elections. They deserve their money back from Hamas' leaders. Kick the leaders out of Qatar, drain their bank accounts (and anything else they have of value), give the money to the Palestinians.

If need be, find someone to administer it who will be put under a microscope (to make sure they don't line their pockets or abuse their position) until the Palestinians can recreate their government and manage it themselves. (And, no, I have no suggestions here besides it being someone that the Palestinians trust but who is watched over by a third party.)

Hamas doesn't see the Palestinian people as worthy of living decent lives. They see them as cannon fodder in their quest to destroy Israel/Jews.

(And, before anyone says "but Israel..", I disagree with a lot of what Israel does also. This comment was focused on Hamas, though. It's long enough with just that. Writing up the entire thing would be WAY too long!)

[–] DanL4@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

I am sad to say this (enrichment of the leaders on the Palestinians account) was true even before hamas.

Suah Arafat (Yassir Arafats wife, he was head of PLO) is a very prosperous woman. It took a couple of days between Arafats death and the announcement, because she had to have all his money transferred to her name. He didn't personally earn anything in that scale.

Regarding elections - hamas used to literally run over fatah (its opposition) demonstrations with pickup trucks

[–] nix@merv.news 3 points 10 months ago

Very very few people are pro hamas, they’re fascist religious zealots just like netanyahu. They are also one of the only groups bringing world attention to the apartheid state that is israel due to netanyahu helping prop them up and accelerating such dire situations in Gaza.

Fascists shake hands with fascists in private while commanding the people hate eachother in public to keep everyone distracted and desperate