this post was submitted on 26 May 2025
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MeanwhileOnGrad

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[–] releaseTheTomatoes@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

It's no wonder they suck at "converting" people, they know nothing about how socialism works. Nevermind the fact that they see it as "converting" rather than just having an open discussion, I can almost guarantee these people will immediately swing around the "no actually soviet union was based" or "nono you dont understand, china was mega based they needed to starve out the population" in a discussion once they lose their patience. If you ever get a chance to talk to these people irl, try to have a convo about a stateless society. I can speak from personal experience, when you bring that up, their mind goes blank, and they will start to sound less like a communist and more like a right-winger.

These are the people that give socialism a bad rep.

For them “socialism” is binary. Either it’s rampant authoritarian dystopia or modern capitalism.

They reject nuance and the varying levels of social policy that can be applied even to capitalist styles of governing.

[–] FreakinSteve@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

I cheerfully install kitchen cabinets made by cheerful Vietnamese communists and then I tell the homeowners that they have helped to support a Marxist regime that was once oppressed by capitalist Americans.

[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 96 points 3 days ago (18 children)

The thing is that it’s not even really “socialism” that the Chinese guy is is complaining about here. He’s complaining about the authoritarian aspects of the Mainland Chinese government, which is not the same as socialism. And the fact that the tankie can’t understand that is just… I don’t even know what to do with it at this point.

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[–] RandomStickman@fedia.io 67 points 3 days ago (5 children)

the region where Hong Kong is

Can't even just say Hong Kong? Does that make us sound too independent or what?

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[–] SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 31 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (38 children)

An actually communist society where everybody has equal influence would be a direct democracy.

Authoritarianism is the enemy of the communist utopia the creators of the ideology dreamed about.

[–] Honytawk@feddit.nl 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Communism has the same problems as the Free Market.

It doesn't prevent selfish people from fucking it up completely for everyone else.

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[–] MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The tankie would easily be able to convince their friend if they said China is never going to convert to communism, but communism was tried by lots of indigenous tribes and it worked great.

[–] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Tankie is not an anarchist....

Well there's the problem!

[–] goat@sh.itjust.works 19 points 2 days ago (19 children)

I wonder why extremists hate liberals so much. They all talk of liberals with such disdain.

[–] FreakinSteve@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Liberals are capitalists first and foremost. Profit over human rights every time.

[–] goat@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Who isn't profit over human rights every time?

[–] LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Communists? Anarchists? That is not their stated aim.

To contrast with Neoliberalism - "financial freedom" of a "free market" is a core tenet, including the continued existence of a capitalist class (those who generate wealth through capital/assets rather than labour), which requires a dichotomy of capitalists and workers (cannot have a society of just capitalists since someone has to clean gutters and such) and therefore it's not possible to fully democratize the economy.

It's why democracies are so unpopular in the west now, almost everyone understands on some level that votes just switch colours and a few key details and have no way of affecting larger power dynamics guided by wealth. The people simply have no democratic voice in the way that actually matters.

I'm an anarchist, but as far as I understand my theory, Neoliberals don't actually argue that this exploitation isn't a stated aim or core part of their ideology, rather that this exploitation is mutually beneficial, even something as obviously exploitative as sweatshop labour is preferable to just having no money and no food.

I think the issue is that this works only some of the time, only as long as it is cheaper to actually borrow millions for insane R&D and megaprojects affairs that promise guaranteed returns, and otherwise it instead incentivizes the creation of extractive institutions instead where every capitalist becomes an economic rent-seeker, forcing all wealth to "trickle" up, not down, and then Marx's predictions of internal contradictions start coming true.

The answer neoliberals pose to this is regulation, which would be good if not for the contradiction that from my understanding neoliberals also propose market solutions where possible, generally privatised/market solutions are seen as superior to Keynesian SocDem adjacent ones, which results in the assets of a government being exposed to markets as investment opportunities.

Even with all the added value that may bring, (best case e.g. shitty swamp turned into a city park by a rich investor with a vision), this will directly transfer assets and value, and ultimately - power, from governments to private entities. The end result of this is that inevitably capitalists simply have far more economic power than the public institutions meant to keep them in check, whether small corruption or mass-disinformation campaigns, they simply muscle their way into the democratic process to facilitate further and further extraction.

This inevitably leads to Fascism where the government and capitalists merge together, they disempower the working class through austerity measures while financially reckless behaviour gets them government hand-outs because they are simply too big, too important of an institution to fail anymore, they buy out the press and use misinformation to incite bigotry and patriotic fervour, while gunning for power on platforms of "cutting government waste" to further defund public programs, thereby increasing their own bargaining power to exploit the working class.

Ultimately the working class have no choice and surrender to whatever exploitation they may face once the capitalists own all assets, many of them become traitors and side with those with power in exchange for wealth, status and protection, even if it means threatening violence and following through on any workers who want to take that power back.

With enough technology amassed in few enough hands, the capitalists are now free to unleash horrors beyond our imagining on anyone they please.

The solution to prevent this is clear: we need to protect public institutions from privatisation, and enforce hard limits on how and when free market economics can play out, and strive towards more and more egalitarian distribution of power, where the creation of wealth and economic activity's primary purpose is maximisation of happiness / minimisation of suffering for everyone, rather than elevation of the few.

Those in power would never give up a shot at near absolute power so easily, certainly not via the methods they ultimately control due to the power imbalance of their accumulated wealth, so it's unlikely that electoralism can succeed, though reforms on the electoral level can and should be supported to limit capitalist influence on the public sector, but it's likely that ultimately nothing short of a violent popular people's revolution can save us now from an eternity of misery.

We may fail and end up with a politburo of apparatchiks and an army of red corpocops, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make a better world, especially when the trajectory for the current one is bleak beyond measure.

[–] FreakinSteve@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Hear hear!!

[–] cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 4 points 1 day ago (8 children)

Its actually quite simple. Fascism is not a bug of capitalism, but a feature. If theres an economic crisis capitalism tends to swing against marginalised groups in order to stop the working class from revolting against their true oppressors. If you finally want to defeat fascism you have to defeat capitalism.

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