this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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Forgotten Weapons

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FN P90 Prototype (1980s) (lemmy.world)
submitted 10 months ago by FireTower@lemmy.world to c/forgottenweapons@lemmy.world
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[–] setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world 51 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I believe this, especially the bottom model, was always intended to be a “tool room gun”. As in it was never intended to be the final design, but a testbed for proof of concept of things like the feed mechanism.

Firearms designers, especially at places like FN, tend not to be completely stupid so if a prototype model looks immediately stupid to us, I think we can safely assume the designers were aware of the faults.

I know what I said might be obvious, but the “hurt durr dumb design” comments that inevitably follow pictures like this around tend to get a little old. The pictured design evolved into the P90, so obviously there had to be experiments when spinning up a design with so many unique features.

[–] AEsheron@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The original design was meant to be a sidearm, wasn't it? Something a tank crew might fall back on IIRC. I could see this being a real vision for a final product. That doesn't make the designers dumb. Sometimes you have to try stuff that looks dumb because it might not actually be.

[–] setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

The vision of the PDW was a primary weapon for troops not normally expected to be on the frontlines. Essentially a submachinegun form factor and weight with a cartridge capable of penetrating soft body armor.

Importantly the big magazine and full auto were with the PDW concept from the beginning, so that rear line troops faced with a defense situation could hose down bad guys until help showed up.

There are a lot of obvious deficiencies in the bottom gun such as a lack of any kind of sights aside from a tube, which is even simpler than the wartime M3 Greasegun sights. The idea of a gun designed for full auto but held out and away from the body like a pistol strikes me as the kind of thing not intended for final production.

The top picture looks closer to some kind of concept for a finished design. It looks like an iteration of the bottom design, keeping the below-the-grip bore and big magazine but in a gun beginning to resemble something practical. If you look back and forth between the designs, the top design is an extension of the first that has features that would have been dead obvious to add from the beginning.

I will research and see if I can find links because I am almost certain that read that the bottom design had the “sight” literally drilled with a power drill, but I’d like to source that before declaring it.

[–] Senshi@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

PDWs are not intended for "rear line troops". You find them on the front as well. Everyone who can will be using a standard assault/battle rifle, just for standardization and supply reasons. That includes "rear live" troops such as medical, logistics and MP.

Instead, PDWs are given to everyone working in an environment where a regular assault weapon would be too bulky or heavy to use. Clambering in, out and around small hatches in armored vehicles with large rifles is annoying at best and deadly at worst, when things get stuck.

This means vehicle crews such as APCs, IFVs, tanks, but also air assets such as helicopters and sometimes planes ( most ejection seats have a compartment with either PDW so a pilot can defend himself even after having to bail) are prime candidates for PDW. The requirement of a PDW can be filled by various weapons, so it could be an SMG, a carbine version of an existing assault rifle (facilitates maintenance and supplies, because it's mostly the same parts as everyone else uses) and even pistols. Another quality of PDWs is that they are not expected to be used in regular combat, but only in extraordinary circumstances. Hence accuracy at long range is not a priority, but ease of use and reliability even in messy circumstances ( dirt, heat, getting knocked around) is what matters in an emergency. This is where dedicated PDWs such as the p90 have the advantage over carbine derivatives. Carbines are as complex and sensitive as regular rifles, unlike the much more rugged and simplified closed specialized PDWs.

ASA counter example, units fighting in urban/indoor operations most often opt for carbines and only bring PDWs as an exception. Sometimes PDWs also are used by soldiers that have to carry very bulky equipment in support of an operation, where again they are not expected to be in the main firefight.

Even truck crews (logistics) usually use regular infantry assault rifles, because a truck has a big enough cabin.

[–] setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I think we understand the intended role the same. When I wrote rear line it was too hasty but meant to include troops like AFV crew. PDW are for people who aren’t meant to be using their personal weapons as part of their main role.

Another quality of PDWs is that they are not expected to be used in regular combat, but only in extraordinary circumstances. Hence accuracy at long range is not a priority, but ease of use and reliability even in messy circumstances ( dirt, heat, getting knocked around) is what matters in an emergency.

Yes to all of this. I believe I said the same thing regarding them being a used defensively.

The requirement of a PDW can be filled by various weapons, so it could be an SMG, a carbine version of an existing assault rifle

Other weapons can be used in the role, but when the category of “PDW” as weapons were being explicitly conceptualized in the 1980s at the request of NATOas a new kind of category, they were being given more armor penetrating but pistol sized rounds like 5.7mm or 4.6mm, making them submachinegun-like but more armor penetrating.

Obviously a rifle carbine can be used defensively, and that’s what ended up happening for a lot of militaries, which is part of why the dedicated PDW designs using PDW calibers, as conceived of for PDWs originally in the 80s, never took off in the way they were intended. You don’t really see any military issuing PDW of this description to all of its non-offensive or rear troops as standard practice.

Here is a NATO testing report on PDW calibers, as support that the term “PDW” was conceived to mean something specific and unique from either assault rifles or SMGs.

Here’s a link that’s got HK literature calling their MP7 a PDW. as an example of weapons of this type being explicitly called such by the manufacturer.

[–] tomatolung@lemmy.world 34 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Stargate might still have used it.

[–] Sabre363@sh.itjust.works 14 points 10 months ago (1 children)

O'Neil wouldn't have liked them.

[–] CosmicApe@kbin.social 18 points 10 months ago

It's "O'Neill" with two Ls. There is an O'Neil with one L but he has no sense of humour

[–] Agent641@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Its a reverse engineered goauld weapon, the Fa'abriquena'tiona'al

O'neill would call them Fab's for short.

[–] TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works 33 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Accidentally grab your fn p90 prototype instead of the hand vacuum..

[–] creditCrazy@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

Well one cleans up all the dust in a room and the other cleans up all the people in a room.

[–] Xariphon@kbin.social 24 points 10 months ago (5 children)

Is this a firearm or a stapler?

[–] effward@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Long-distance hole-punch

[–] Mr_Blott@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

None of you seen a reciprocating saw before?!?

[–] Rakonat@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Just wait till Swingline releases their competing model.

[–] Xariphon@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago

Does it come in red though?

[–] DarkenLM@kbin.social 4 points 10 months ago

It is a stapler for your enemies.

[–] Gladaed@feddit.de 3 points 10 months ago

Anything is a stapler if you are brave enough.

[–] neidu@feddit.nl 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I think we had something like that hanging on the kitchen wall in the 90's. Or maybe that was a vacuum idk

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 20 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I joke that my Hi-Point PCC looks like a rifle designed by smart engineers that had never seen and actual rifle. This put me in my place.

[–] Rakonat@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

SA80

[–] Followupquestion@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The SA-80 is proof that the Brits can’t be trusted with designing auto-loading guns. Sniper rifles? Maybe even Sniper rifles dressed in a garage? Sure, go wild. Thing that’s going to be issued to general infantry? No, leave that to one of the myriad other countries that have never designed and ordered in large quantities an abomination like the SA-80.

[–] Rakonat@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

British can design guns just fun. The SA80 was designed by a group of engineers with zero firearms experience. Its like asking a carpenter to build a car. They know the shape and function but not actually why it made the way it is

[–] chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world 19 points 10 months ago

Costco Jack Bauer looks like he likes it.

[–] Norgur@kbin.social 16 points 10 months ago

grabs pillow

Covers prototype with pillow

Pushes hard

Sssssssshhhhhhh, it's okay.

[–] magnolia_mayhem@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

NGL, I kinda want wood furniture on a P90 now.

[–] Mr_Blott@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Like a dining chair?

[–] FireTower@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

When people talk about furniture on guns they mean the stock, handguard, or grip.

Here's a G3 with wood furniture:

Here's one with polymer furniture:

[–] Mr_Blott@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

My mental image was better

[–] reflex@kbin.social 11 points 10 months ago

Lookin' like an FN P00.

[–] dipshit@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I like the curved barrel

[–] Wodge@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago

It's to account for the curvature of the Earth.

[–] teft@startrek.website 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This would have made SG1 way less cool.

[–] magnolia_mayhem@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

I see they made some changes. As a fan of 5.7, I still approve.

[–] Psaldorn@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

I'm glad they redesigned it.

[–] Lophostemon@aussie.zone 5 points 10 months ago

Dang that looks dumb.

[–] creditCrazy@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I'm fr curious what was the reason for this design

[–] Xanthrax@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Confined spaces. Think about trying to hop out of a transport vehicle with a full length rifle.

[–] WetBeardHairs@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Compact, non-snaggy, durable design for personnel who would otherwise snag, break, or not be able to carry a full sized battle rifle. E.g.: tank crew, pilots.

[–] ours@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

Now that's some low-bore axis. The Rhino of the PDW world.

[–] iAvicenna@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

Looks like it came out of a "wait hold my beer for a sec" moment

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

The leaf blower

[–] creditCrazy@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Anyone else think it looks like a jack hammer without the chisel. Like the top one is just a jack hammer with a pistol grip on the side.

[–] Thcdenton@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

So it was HK that introduced Kel-Tec to cocaine