this post was submitted on 03 Jul 2023
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From https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/14phpbq/how_is_it_possible_that_roughly_50_of_americans/

Question above is pretty blunt but was doing a study for a college course and came across that stat. How is that possible? My high school sucked but I was well equipped even with that sub standard level of education for college. Obviously income is a thing but to think 1 out of 5 American adults is categorized as illiterate is…astounding. Now poor media literacy I get, but not this. Edit: this was from a department of education report from 2022. Just incase people are curious where that comes from. It does also specify as literate in English so maybe not as grim as I thought.

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[–] legion@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

If you don't understand, start walking further away from the cities.

If you still don't understand, you're not done walking.

[–] mochi@lemdit.com 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If you think the problem is in the countryside, you've never been to New York City, and particularly the Bronx.

[–] Xero@infosec.pub 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I grew up in New York city, and lived in the Bronx. Most of the people living there are literate in their mother tongue, less so in English. Is that what you were trying to say?

[–] mochi@lemdit.com 6 points 1 year ago

No. What I meant to say is that native English speakers in the Bronx have poor literacy rates.

https://www.norwoodnews.org/bronx-barriers-literacy-challenge/

[–] BurtsBS@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago
[–] treadful@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There's a slight gradient in literacy when looking at grade level but it's not really accurate with illiteracy. Seems cities can still have a considerable population that can't read.

https://nces.ed.gov/naal/estimates/StateEstimates.aspx

[–] riskable@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago

Home schoolers/child abusers are everywhere.

Note: Not talking about legitimate, regular curriculum, "online school" for kids that can't attend normal school for whatever reason, (e.g. bullying, immunocompromised, etc). I'm referring to religious/cult garbage home schooling stuff that doesn't teach kids much of anything. Parents that put girls through these programs often end them at the fifth or sixth grade (because that's all they need to be "good wives").

[–] Kaiser@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 year ago

Walk far enough into certain cities and you’ll see the same problem. It’s very closely tied to socio-economic class and a self perpetuating problem.

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[–] mochi@lemdit.com 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Probably a combination of flat out retards and recent immigrants for whom English is a second language.

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[–] joeymaynard@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

So I am a researcher by trade in this field, got a PhD, and develop these kinds of stats (at a more local level). I also have taught basic adult literacy for about 15 years. I think the poster was likely referring to an NCES stat.

We tend to think of adults with low English literacy as people who dropped out of school or never went. We also tend to think "illiterate" is binary, you can read or you can't. But the definition is based around grade-level reading (what can you identify and synthesize from standardized text in English in a given time frame) and inclusive of a broader population. We're talking about people who can't pick up a copy of USA today and tell you the main idea of a front-page article. They can drive, they can work, etc. So they get along and this issue get ignored.

For example, some stats on illiteracy will count "non-participants" among those who can't read/write, but this includes people in the study with cognitive disabilities or language barriers to the point that they can't take the reading test. The share of U.S. adults who are functionally illiterate in English includes some non-native English speaking adults and also a couple generations of folks with reading diasbilities who passed through school, AND people who didn't read for myriad other reasons.

I have tutored older adults learning to read/write for many years and have met a lot of people who ran businesses or raised families or worked full careers before learning to read. Adaptable and clever bunch. And even many U.S.-born native English speakers who got shuffled through high school despite serious disadvantage and/or disabilities.

[–] rwhitisissle@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

the definition is based around grade-level reading (what can you identify and synthesize from standardized text in English in a given time frame) and inclusive of a broader population. We’re talking about people who can’t pick up a copy of USA today and tell you the main idea of a front-page article.

Purely anecdotal, but I know someone who is a tenured professor at a university that will flat out refuse to answer any question that has too much supporting detail around it. As in, if you say "for this part of the assignment, I'm doing..." and proceed to describe your attempt at problem solving over four or five sentences, asking if what you've done is correct or close to it, and he will simply respond with "there's too much here to unpack, sorry," and refuse to answer the question. But if you do it in person, like verbally read out the same paragraph you wrote, he can understand and answer it. There's other things, too. He can type out simple sentences, but has a very poor grasp of spelling, frequently getting very simple words wrong (think different versions of there, their, and they're). It's genuinely baffling how he got to that point, but he also hasn't ever really published material and it kinda makes sense why. Dude has a doctorate in a STEM field and I think the reason for that is that he can understand mathematics, but literally can't understand complex writing. Any idea that takes more than a single sentence to explicate just evaporates out of his head.

I’ve never seen anything as extreme as you describe, but when I took the GRE I met a guy kind of like this. After you finish the exam it gives you an estimate of your score, but your real scores are sent to you weeks later. On the way out some guy asked me how I did (fairly well but not 97% plus on anything). He was like “oh damn if you don’t get above 95% on math then you can’t go to grad school in STEM lol”. I asked him what he got in the reading and writing and he said <33% “but that isn’t important for grad school” lmao

[–] Hedup@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

people who can’t pick up a copy of USA today and tell you the main idea of a front-page article

Thanks! Suddenly America makes a lot of sense now.

[–] FiftyShadesOfMyCow@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Very interesting read! I’m from Germany and taught myself English. I’m currently at a C1/B2 level (it’s a European standard I think?) and consider myself good enough to move through English speaking countries independently just fine.

I’m basically studying English every day by reading and watching YouTube exclusively in English. Love it!

It’s a shame that many people don’t bother honing their language skills.

[–] griffen62@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That's really impressive, I do wish I took learning another language more seriously when I was younger. Everyonce Ina while I try to dig back into it but lose motivation for one reason or another.

What did you find to be the most helpful starting out?

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[–] Etterra@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because the government, federal and state level (especially conservative) hate public education and fight to defund it as much as possible. Largely because an educated populace is a dangerous populace. Especially when your political platform relies on identity politics, culture wars, cheating, screwing over the poor, opposing minorities, religious fundamentalism, and any other regressive, oppressive bullshit you can think of. They want stupid voters that they can point at "the enemy" and pit against each other to distract them from facts, all so they can stay rich and powerful.

[–] pachrist@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

It's because a lot of conservatives believe in a really screwed up, masochistic, bastardized version of Christianity that prioritizes vengeance, punishment, and anger. It ignores the love, kindness, acceptance, and mercy (ie the actual teachings of Jesus) that make society work well.

So, when kids come home with these new ideas about kindness and acceptance, because being kind to a gay classmate is a great way to demonstrate the love real Christianity teaches and society values, the parents freak out. They push to ban books, fire teachers, and move their kids to private schools that more match their hate filled, divisive worldview. Education polluted their child with abnormal, liberal indoctrination, like being kind, empathetic, and accepting of others.

I an attempt to steer their children back to their core values of hate and divisiveness, they lash out. Any pushback the parents feel in response becomes persecution, because of course "the world" would disagree with them. They're the TRUE Christians afterall. So they isolate in ecochambers, and they get more hateful. Any difference of opinion is met with derision and just simply validates their position. And despite being the TRUE Christians, or REAL conservatives, they become less Christian and less conservative every day, instead just becoming these weird, evil, empty husks of people with no real values or ideals outside of hate.

[–] amaryllisunicorn@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

As a school psychologist who completes academic assessments when identifying students with learning disabilities, COVID skyrocketed these numbers. There's just not a lot of motivation for kids anymore. The future is here and is making our population slowly illiterate.

[–] BromSwolligans@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That 'motivation' bit is so important. Former educator, currently still working in education, and I'm always wary of anything that makes a sweeping statement about 'the kids' not being 'all right'. But there are important, substantial contributors to undesirable outcomes that need to be acknowledged. Poverty being one, as well as the cycle of poverty and abuse which is deeply tied to white flight and de-industrialization (which we might collectively assign to the death of the American dream if we aren't too concerned with being precious about the the notion of patriotism).

Saying 'iPads' or 'TikTok' is the culprit doesn't help anyone. But iPads and TikTok are contributing factors because they both exacerbate the feeling that being entertained is enough to scrape one's way through life at the bottom of the barrel of expectations...as well as over-informing young people (and adults) that there is positively nothing left to look forward to. Industry is collapsing, housing and transportation are unaffordable, everything you once expected to purchase (and let's not get lost talking about purchasing as a metric for determining whether one is living a good life) has now moved to an ever-bleeding subscription model; inflation is compounded by corporate greed (and maybe we should talk about how the business incentive of endless growth contributes to every other problem) and corporate greed (something no one but the executives and their shareholders can influence, let alone control) is raping all the natural splendor, wealth and even health and stability of the very ground we walk on and air we breathe.

Why the fuck wouldn't some young person whose future job prospects (which were shit to begin with) are being devoured by AI, just turn toward the boundless font of readily accessible entertainment rather than going uphill toward seemingly fruitless self improvement? Why would they bother to rise to the level of literacy that allows them to appreciate a 19th century classic translated from the original Russian, or to parse the dense theming of some modern masterpiece? What's the reward, to someone whose entire life to this point has been flavored with instant gratification? To them it's all just 'content', and there's plenty of content more accessible than literature. Art may mean nothing for many reasons, not least of which is it can be falsified to a level of acceptability (AI songs by dead artists, for example).

It's a Twilight Zone, Black Mirror, Brave New World living nightmare. But what is the alternative? What systems or entities or organizations are coming to save the day? There are none. This moment is a gruesome forbidden experiment: it is a post-Reaganite, neoliberal race to the cultural bottom, and the youngest generation are the lab rats.

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[–] PhoenxBlue@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

The powers that be want to eliminate schools all together. They don't need a literate labourer. Soldier just need to recognize the alphabet. (I mean this in the most basic of terms. I'm not desparaging anyone.)

They don't want "free thinking" people in their society. If anyone remembers 'Divergent'. If not, look into it. It's not too far off.

[–] tegs_terry@feddit.uk 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because you have a deleterious government that has purposefully de-prioritised education in order to command greater control over a brainwashed population.

[–] PilferJynx@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Americans seem especially averse to paying taxes. Makes sense when you see where those taxes usually go (not education)

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

Unironically relevant

[–] Curious_Canid@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

This disaster did not come about by accident. The whole country has allowed our public schools to decline, but the conservatives have been actively working to destroy them since the 80's. They have been leveraging racism, fundamentalism, and other prejudice-based fears to undermine the curriculum. Meanwhile, they have cut school funding, made teaching a terrible job, and downplayed the value of formal education. Educated people are much harder to manipulate. A minority trying to hold onto power needs a public that is poorly educated and without critical thinking skills.

[–] benvoyondon@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

@toosoon You must be ill-informed, quite biased and in favour of Québec bashing. The government has English translations available for its minority in “La belle province”. Educate yourself. The information is out there.

http://www.education.gouv.qc.ca/fileadmin/site_web/documents/publications/DepStatAlpha_eng.pdf

[–] TheGoldenGod@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

My girlfriend is a math teacher, the number of middle schoolers that can’t do basic multiplication before is surprisingly high. Yet the schools keep passing the kids. I remember learning multiplication as a 4th grader, if I hadn’t, I would’ve never passed.

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[–] ndguardian@lemmy.studio 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I’m not an expert, but I have to imagine it’s in relation to the fact that public education in the United States tends to be rather underfunded. Teachers often don’t have all the resources to do their jobs effectively, and many resort to paying for resources out of their own pocket.

Pair that with the fact that the average salary for a teacher in a public school is almost criminally low for a position that has a massive impact on our social outcomes, and you get students that are disengaged and overall not as prepared as they could be.

This is all just what I’ve gathered from reading news articles over time. I’m sure there are several other factors at play.

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