this post was submitted on 12 Jan 2024

-10 points (39.1% liked)

Ask Lemmy

26903 readers

1902 users here now

A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions

Please don't post about US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world

Rules: (interactive)

1) Be nice and; have fun

Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them

2) All posts must end with a '?'

This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?

3) No spam

Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.

4) NSFW is okay, within reason

Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com. NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].

5) This is not a support community.

It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.

Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.

Partnered Communities:

Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

candyman337@lemmy.world

Bluetreefrog@lemmy.world

TheSaneWriter@lemm.ee

TheSaneWriter@lemmy.thesanewriter.com

candyman337@sh.itjust.works

Asudox@lemmy.world

can@lemmy.ca

lemmy_bot@lemmy.world

beefbaby182@lemmy.world

asudox@discuss.tchncs.de

-10

Why is there a ICC case of genocide against Israel but not China or Russia? (lemmy.world)

submitted 10 months ago by Canyon201@lemmy.world to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

22 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I don't understand, there is no proof of genocide in Israel but YEARS of evidence against China and Russia. Can anyone explain this to me?

top 22 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] reddit_sux@lemmy.world 20 points 10 months ago (1 children)

ICJ case against Israel is I think a way for countries whose voices are being vetoed to be heard.

Russia is being called out for genocide all over the world. There is a warrant out for putin's arrest for that crime.

China is also being panned the same way.

Israel meanwhile is drowning the cries of genocide by calling any mention of it as Anti Semitic speech.

West in my opinion should grow out of their shame about what they did to Jewish people. And start calling out them for the horrors Jewish people are doing.

[–] angstylittlecatboy@reddthat.com 11 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

West in my opinion should grow out of their shame about what they did to Jewish people. And start calling out them for the horrors Jewish people are doing.

Mild disagree. What needs to happen is that the shame has to be about what was done instead of who it was done to.

[–] reddit_sux@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Israel is bullying the west using that shame to get to do what the west does. West let's it continue more because of greed hiding behind the shame.

West has done far worse to Africa and other parts of Asia. It just feels less shameful about it since there is less profit there.

[–] leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Lots of people and countries are claiming Russia is committing genocide and are investigating that possibility.

Several nations and legal institutions have also classed China's actions against the Uyghur as genocidal.

However, as far as I'm aware neither Russia or China are signed up to the ICC so there's not much point in using that body to penalise them.

Israel is though and your claim there's no proof is literally true (in the sense you used the word 'proof') but there is plenty of evidence that Israel certainly has genocide very much in the forefront of their minds when members of the Israeli government suggest nuking Gaza, or creating 'no go' areas for Palestinians in recognised Palestinian areas that just so happen to be where Palestinian farmers grow and harvest food. Israeli historian of the Holocaust Omer Bartov warned that statements made by top Israeli officials "could easily be construed as indicating a genocidal intent."

[+] Canyon201@lemmy.world -10 points 10 months ago (3 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=939hSvcH0qM

Israelis are the real victims of genocide in this conflict, as is literally the only possible relation between genocide and Israel
There is no "dispute" between Israel and South Africa that the court can rule over, because that would require that they engage with them.
"Random quotes" of people like the Israeli Prime Minister, Secretary of Defense, and Knesset members mean nothing, it is not policy
Hamas is in literally every home and hospital, in every humanitarian zone and aid vehicle, and embedded in every facility of civilian infrastructure
Israel provides all the food, water, medicine, fuel, etc. that Gazans could possibly want
Israel must protect themselves from Hamas which has sworn to destroy it

The world has forgotten about the plight of the Ukrainians and Uyghurs who are peaceful

[–] leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

It literally isn't. Any government, including the Israeli government, is capable of being genocidal.
That who engage with whom?
If you don't think the opinions of government ministers up to and including the PM have any weight on current or future policy, then I admire your ability to ignore reality.
Can you provide verified, independent proof that that is true?
You're right. Why would any country want to make/farm/produce their own food? They should just shut up and be grateful, right?
No argument there. Sadly, the IDF, on the orders of the Israeli government, seem either unable or unwilling to differentiate between Hamas and Palestinians.

[–] xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 10 months ago

Being victims of genocide does not mean it is impossible to commit genocide
Israel is an ICC signatory, and is obligated to follow its rulings
The PM, Defense Sec and Knesset are all of the policy makers for military policy
This is just "all Palestinians are hamas". Straight up racist shit.
Israel totally controls and only allows minute amounts of all of these resources through, of which multiple international aid organisations have stated it's vastly insufficient
Genocide is not self defense. The Palestinian people have a right to exist as well.

Bonus point: multiple genocides can exist at once, the fact that others are being committed does not change the events within Gaza

[–] KinNectar@kbin.run 5 points 10 months ago

Follow this simple rule for clarity, replace the names and ethnic background of the parties in question with A and B, acknowledge that A and B have historical conflict and are distinct ethnic groups but set aside their cultural characteristics and specifics. Now take the actions of A towards B and compare them to historical examples. Under jurisprudence there can be no a priori exoneration of any group due to historical factors, actors must be judged solely on their actions.

The ICC follows "The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. It does not include political groups or so called “cultural genocide”." And Israel is walking a fine line at the moment by claiming that they are exterminating a political group "Hamas" but their actions towards the civilian population will determine their guilt or innocence in the eyes of history and the international community. The ICC's job is to collect all the facts that we civilians can not, and make a determination based on those facts. If you believe Israel is innocent, you should not worry as the facts will clearly exonerate them and so will history be written.

[–] badhops@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

i'm a grumpy old troll ... who lives under a bridge

[–] greenking2000@startrek.website 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Upsetting russia was seen as bad plan when trying to normalise relations with them and the rest of Europe (Pre Crimea) The idea was to intertwine economies so that was would never be feasible.

World is dependent on China for manufacturing

When the punishment for countries is economic (As no one would dare go to war with a Nuclear power) and you depend on their economy you don’t need have much to gain do you? Just ruins everything. You could go for specific people I guess but their countries will just ignore it.

Israel is/pretends to be normal with most of the world. So will probably actually do stuff if they lose.

Then the obvious. It’s all political theatre and no one actually cares about genocide.

[–] Canyon201@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

After Russia started the invasion and started stealing children they were already isolated economically so why not bring the court case? They have an arrest warrant out for Putin but that appears different than the claim of "genocide" in regards to Israel.

China did not do anything after the UN report on Xinjiang came out, and many countries have already passed resolutions declaring the detention and sterilization of Uyghurs as genocide, but the ICC didn't hear a case.

[–] greenking2000@startrek.website 10 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Russia doesn’t recognise the court

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1424ao/countries_where_the_international_criminal_court/

They aren’t a member and so won’t show up. So you would have to try them in absence and then even if someone is found guilty what next? Same issue as above. You’ve already done the punishment (Sanctions).

Anything else would just be Political Posturing (Same as the warrant for Putin)

[–] Canyon201@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

An international declaration of genocide is not only important to respect the brave soldiers of Ukraine but to show Russia that it can't be a bully. How can it be fair that a country formed after surviving a genocide can be formally accused of genocide in a international court ?

[–] greenking2000@startrek.website 3 points 10 months ago

I think most countries that support Ukrainian have already said as much. China and Russia will vote down anything in the UN as two permanent members of the security council.

Because after surviving the Holocaust the state of Israel was formed by expulsion of natives, colonialism, war and, possibly, genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight

I would recommend starting with the history of Israel from the First World War and going chronologically. It is a messy conflict with stupid numbers of massacres and atrocities by the PLO, Israeli government and both of their predecessors.

Long story short though. Israel and the PLO have, with certainty, committed various “war crimes” in the past. As Israel won the war(s) the loser of those wars can very easily claim Genocide. If it was the other way around with the PLO winning the wars then we would see the reverse right now.

Accusing someone/a country of a crime does not mean they did it. Being a victim in the past (Holocaust) does not mean that they are immune to criticism/criminal proceeding for future actions.

[–] vin@lemmynsfw.com 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Have Russia and China joined upto ICC?

[–] cali_ash@lemmy.wtf 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Russia and Israel have signed the Rome Statute, but not ratified it and then both withdrew. China hasn't signed it.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

China and Russia are permanent members of the security council

[–] Canyon201@lemmy.world -2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

What does that have to do with the International Court of Justice, isn't that a separate from the security council?

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Its a reflection of the political realities that govern that level of international politics.

[–] Canyon201@lemmy.world -2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Are members of the security council able to veto a case? France, U.K, U.S.A, are all members too and support Israel how can they allow this to happen

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 4 points 10 months ago

it's not about the rules as written, its about the power politics and the relationships countries wish to maintain / develop.