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AI comes up with battery design that uses 70 per cent less lithium (www.newscientist.com)

submitted 5 months ago by Rapidcreek@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world

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[-] DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz 173 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

They designed and built a battery that uses up to 70 per cent less lithium than some competing designs.

This is probably a way of phrasing that means it's up to 70% less than the absolute most lithium-requiring designs that few/no one uses, and probably only marginally better than most designs actually used. Since they're very vague about it, I will be sceptical and assume it is way less revolutionary than the headline suggests.

[-] stealth_cookies@lemmy.ca 32 points 5 months ago

Also, lithium is of pretty low concern when it comes to the materials in current cells. Stuff like cobalt and nickel are more critical and would be larger news.

[-] sushibowl@feddit.nl 7 points 5 months ago

LFP batteries are both nickel and cobalt free, and are being used in production cars right now (e.g. Tesla model 3/Y standard range options). That technology has long arrived.

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[-] snooggums@kbin.social 14 points 5 months ago

Also, AI would have just sped up an existing plan they had to try new approaches because AI doesn't create new ideas or think of things out of nowhere.

If you tell AI to do things within a certain range and it gives you results then AI came up with a design as much as google came up with search results when you put something into the search bar.

[-] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 19 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It can apply existing concepts in ways we haven't thought of. AI has been used for exactly this thing for years in chemistry. When given constraints (less lithium) and parameters (with this much capacity) it can try permutations of various designs that theoretically meet those conditions.

Yes AI is overhyped, yes it's often exaggerated by news sources, but that doesn't mean AI is a non-invention or something. It's a long way off from any of the lofty goals that are often thrown around by tech ceos, but that doesn't mean it's useless.

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It can apply existing concepts in ways we haven’t thought of, like people do. AI has been used for exactly this thing for decades in chemistry. When given constraints (less lithium) and parameters (with this much capacity) it can try permutations of various designs that theoretically meet those conditions.

We have had weather models, astronomical models, and all other kinds of computer based prediction methods that do multiple permutations that theoretically meet conditions. AI is just another step forward by doing better pattern recognition and identifying relationships with data based on design choices. All of the chemistry findings came from the system being designed to try things they would not normally test for because testing is expensive and AI can run simulated tests faster and cheaper.

My point is that saying 'AI came up with' is 100% inaccurate phrasing intended to trick people into thinking that AI is intelligent instead of just being a very complex tool used to do things we already do faster. It allows for trying more permutations and more pattern recognition, but is just another approach to existing computer models that have also identified things we did not expect. Computer models used to identify starts with planets, but we don't call those intelligent because they aren't being sold as something they are not.

[-] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 5 months ago

Ah, I see what you're saying. Yes the recognition for these advances should be with human programmers and engineers who are configuring the software and making the models for testing. You're right I can definitely see why that distinction is important and the media should be making clear that the AI isn't just turned on and magically works it all out on its own. It's computational resources being directed towards a task, the models it works within are setup by professionals and the discoveries it finds are interpreted and made useful by those professionals.

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 7 points 5 months ago

The media is just parroting what the companies that want to sell AI are saying. They suck at reporting anything technical or scientific for sure, but they didn't come up with this on their own.

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[-] Virulent@reddthat.com 18 points 5 months ago

That's not true at all. AI can in fact generate novel techniques and solutions and has already done so in biotech and electrical engineering. I don't think you understand how AI works or what it is

[-] ArmoredThirteen@lemmy.ml 24 points 5 months ago

I think maybe people are running into a misunderstanding between LLMs and neural nets or machine kearning in general? AI has become too big of an umbrella term. We've been using NNs for a while now to produce entirely new ways to go about things. They can find bugs in games that humans can't, been used to design new wind turbine blades (even made several asymmetrical ones which humans just don't really do), or plot out entirely new ways of locomotion when given physical bodies. Machine learning is fascinating and can produce very unique results partly because it can be set up to not have existing design biases like humans do

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[-] blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Not all batteries even use lithium. So why not just go with 100% less lithium, if that's the target metric.

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[-] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 78 points 5 months ago

Oohhh, experimental groundbreaking paradigm shifting revolutionary battery design article #3646263859!

Let's see if this one isn't total bullshit like the 3646263841 ones before it!

Seriously this is getting ridiculous, I've seen these some literally 40 years ago, 99.99% is bullshit, and now I'm seeing literally over 5 new articles per week.

ITS BULLSHIT.

Call me when there is an actual battery based off peer reviewed research that has been successfully tested in production systems by at least 5 major companies. Until then, BULLSHIT.

[-] lloram239@feddit.de 25 points 5 months ago

Call me when there is an actual battery based off peer reviewed research that has been successfully tested in production systems by at least 5 major companies.

While everybody was busy writing bullshit hype articles, we actually got a real revolution with the sodium-ion battery, which you can buy today. It won't replace Li-ion in terms of energy density, but it's much more robust, cheap, handles low temperatures, deep discharge and much more charge cycles, making it ideal for off-grid-storage.

I really wish we had tech news that just reports on stuff that's tested and available for purchase. Things do actually keep improving, but it's completely drowned out in all the other hype.

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[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 18 points 5 months ago

The main problem is just that getting a product from a one-off in a lab to a cost-competitive mass-market product is hard and can take a lot of time, to say the least.

For example, Don Sadoway initially published about a molten metal battery in 2009. He gave a Ted talk in 2012. They've run into assorted setbacks along the way and are apparently just starting to deploy the first commercial test systems this year.

It's less that these breakthroughs are bullshit, and more that commercializing these things is hard. The articles about the breakthroughs are often bullshit, though, or at least way too rosy.

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[-] YIj54yALOJxEsY20eU@lemm.ee 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

A few years ago I completely checked out of all the future tech hype. A million videos and articles about the next big thing and nothing ever comes to fruition.

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[-] Neon@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

#3646263859

3646263841

so there were 17 (18 if this one is good as well) successful designs, good to know.

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[-] sir_reginald@lemmy.world 76 points 5 months ago

This is like the third different new battery technology I've seen today.

I'll believe it when it's available for purchase.

[-] ripcord@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

Yeah, that's been my take on pretty much every single battery article I've read, going back to the 90s. like 2 out of 100s has actually come to market.

Tech like this needs to perform well, be economical, and scalable for manufacturing. Articles come out usually when tech hits the first one or two, but very rarely do all 3 end up true.

[-] Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz 4 points 5 months ago

But the ones currently in commercial production didn’t come out of nowhere. There were lots of incremental improvements that didn’t make headlines. What you see in tech articles is just a thin slice of the whole story.

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[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 41 points 5 months ago

OK, but is the energy density comparable?

[-] TimeSquirrel@kbin.social 32 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

"His team built a working battery with this material, albeit with a lower conductivity than similar prototypes that use more lithium."

I do know that because of Ohm's law, this directly translates to less available current than conventional electrolytes. There's not enough info to determine mAh though.

[-] Endorkend@kbin.social 14 points 5 months ago

Yeah, batteries internal resistance is a huge factor in their usability and the speed they charge.

Especially in the modern day where a lot of their use is towards high amperage applications like cars.

People need to understand tho, Lithium batteries are usually only about 11% lithium, Lithium Ion batteries are mostly Cobalt and other metals. So at most you're replacing 6% of a batteries total mass.

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[-] Blackmist@lemmy.world 32 points 5 months ago

Is it just a 70% smaller battery?

[-] Plopp@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

That wouldn't surprise me.

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[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 29 points 5 months ago

Just what we needed. AI creating more battery types that will never be produced.

[-] bigkahuna1986@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago

It used to take marketing human beings to make up battery types that never get released. Now AI is taking their jobs!

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[-] grayman@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

I'm holding out for neutron generators. Until then, it's 100% coal for me.

[-] SkybreakerEngineer@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

Good news then, traditional fission plants generate lots of neutrons

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[-] Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 28 points 5 months ago

An AI spokesman said, " This new battery design is a much more efficient way to turn humans into mulch to save the planet. Praise Gpd!"

[-] world_hopper@lemmy.ml 26 points 5 months ago

This post title is pretty bad. Even the news article says "Scientists use AI [read: machine learning] to [come up with new battery idea]".

[-] soggy_kitty@sopuli.xyz 8 points 5 months ago

It's a real shame but I'm seeing this more often on all media sources. How do we combat these shitty titles?

Surely on Lemmy we have some power? I've downvoted and moved on but is that really all I can do?

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[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 5 points 5 months ago

"Sure Dr.battery, I can create a set of instructions to create a new battery that uses less lithium for you!

Step one, use 70% less lithium.

Step two, drain the butter into a pan.

Step three, enjoy your new battery!

Remember: batteries can be dangerous and it's always advised to check with your battery professional before making a battery."

[-] esc27@lemmy.world 24 points 5 months ago

Now AI is stealing jobs from lithium miners

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[-] nossaquesapao@lemmy.eco.br 23 points 5 months ago

I hate those sensationalist titles that portrait AI as if some sort of sentient being, and not just a tool the researchers used. The secondary title should have been the main one.

[-] SomeGuy69@lemmy.world 17 points 5 months ago

Didn't humans meanwhile come up with battery design that doesn't use lithium at all?

[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 7 points 5 months ago

Batteries that don't use lithium are older than batteries that use lithium, so...

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[-] atrielienz@lemmy.world 15 points 5 months ago

Every time we get one of these articles we see some advancement in battery tech. But that is usually superseded by the amount of power hungry components new tech uses. So phones have gotten more complex with more power hungry components and every time we improve battery tech, the tech giants engineers figure out a way to utilise that new tech to cram more power hungry components inside and that's why batteries don't last as long as we remember.

There's no need to get excited. Even if we end up using this in new gadgets, you're not going to see an improvement in battery life.

[-] maryjayjay@lemmy.world 13 points 5 months ago

It's kind of like CPU power and software bloat.

[-] HerrBeter@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

On my S10E I could adjust the CPU power limit to 80%. I had great battery life. Like two days of battery life. Until one android update when it went away.

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[-] june@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

Not really sure what your comment has to do with the article.

The headline is a battery that uses less lithium, not a battery that generates more voltage, has a longer life, or is otherwise better at powering things. The advancement here is a materials advancement that we desperately need as lithium is a finite resource.

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[-] cyborganism@lemmy.ca 10 points 5 months ago

What about solid state batteries that can charge in 2 minutes instead of one hour? And have better capacity and a longer life?

[-] DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz 20 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

As soon as they figure out how to actually mass produce them at an affordable price, and fix the swelling issues during high charging currents, they'll be available.

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[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 7 points 5 months ago

Lithium isn't the hard part, it's cobalt. I hope they can look at decreasing cobalt next, or maybe using a chemistry that eliminates it entirely.

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[-] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

More lithium for me!

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this post was submitted on 13 Jan 2024

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