Don't say anything you wouldn't say to someone's face. HR shit has a way of getting around.
this post was submitted on 15 Jan 2024
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Hmm the thing is me and some other team mate got roasted so badly that I would say all of this to his face, as it’s all packed nicely into fluffy diplomatic corporate speak. It’s pretty bad feedback anyway and other than me getting revenge I’m thinking there’s probably nothing for me to win but potentially the impression that I’m backstabbing? Idk
Let me see if I got this.
The manager of your former manager is asking for feedback about your old boss. You decided not to provide it, and now they’re reaching out and asking if you can. Correct?
What’s the concern? Retaliation?
If you’re worried about confidentiality because of your past work history, you can thank the sender for the opportunity and tell them you have a confidentiality concern.
As for what you have to “gain” from feedback - a healthier workplace for you and your peers. It sounds like your old manager might be problematic, and others are complaining about that person as well. If that is the case, and everyone keeps their mouth shut about this person, then they’re going to be allowed to persist and terrorize others.
It‘s the skip level of my former manager who’s reaching out now, but otherwise correct. Yeah my concern is about confidentiality and possible retaliation. Like it would be helpful to share the feedback but not at my own expense. So I guess I’m trying to weigh the risks here.
At least in my experience, if a skip level is contacting you about feedback they normally know something isn't right and want to gather examples. Just give objective feedback with specific examples of when you have seen it.
I kind of thought the same so I tried to be as objective as possible and submitted the feedback
I could go into chat GPT, say that you were asked to give 360 feedback for someone and you’re worried about retaliation. Then give it the top 2 or 3 things you’d like to highlight.
For example, if you want to talk about micromanaging, you could say:
"I believe there's an opportunity to foster a more autonomous work environment. Empowering team members with greater decision-making responsibilities could lead to increased productivity."
That pretty constructive and bland.
Thanks for the idea, I’ve actually done that to make sure everything is as PC as possible and formulated in a positive way and decide to submit the feedback.
Create a paper trail.
For a non English speaking person, what is a « skip level » person ?
I'm guessing it's the manager of the former manager.
Exactly
"I have no comments I feel would be helpful at this point."
In my experience, there's never been anything positive to come from upward feedback.
When dealing with children, the “oreo cookie” method works well - start with something nice, offer a “suggestion for improvement”, and then finish with something nice as well.
You’ll want to submit the politically correct version through official channels for traceability. After it’s submitted there, you can give a copy over slack. Don’t let anyone make any claims about what you supposedly said over slack dm. Leave a paper trail.
You’ve already been PIPed, so they have reason to look at you. Play nice and check the boxes; I would do the feedback even if the submission is entirely “yeah it was fine” level bs.
All of the above is playing it safe. Offer to provide additional feedback / “discussion” over a voice call as well, and ask what they’re looking for. If they’re building a case against your former manager, you can be honest.
If they just want “general” feedback, or they want it over text (“no time for a call”), or there are multiple people in the room, or the call is being recorded, then fall back to the politically correct version you already submitted.
Your nuclear button is to claim the PIP was retaliation for (something; you can make this up, just make it realistic), but you don’t press that button unless you’re about to be fired. It makes things extremely complicated.
I really hate office politics, but half of being promoted is knowing how to play this stupid game :(
Oreo cookie? That's a shit sandwich!
Thanks a lot for the thoughtful comment. I did what you said and submitted the PC version via Slack and Workday and offered to provide additional input if needed via voice call but they said it’s not necessary.
So I’m sticking to the official version. No idea what’s gonna happen with the PIP, I wasn’t affected by the last round of layoffs but maybe it’s gonna happen now during performance review.
I also hate the office politics, but learned a lot about it from being PIPed and likely (?) surviving it.
Adding - triple check / proofread / rephrase the ai output. Assume the words may be used against you. If your manager is close with whomever reads the feedback, they could ask for “evidence” of any claims. You either need strong evidence, or to avoid any concrete claims. More vague more better / more defensible.
Wtf is PIP? Picture in picture?
Performance improvement plan.
This. Some tech company bs. The measures compiled into it are often vague or impossible to achieve. Mostly it’s a tool to create a paper trail for firing you. They will say that you didn’t manage to achieve the goals of the plan, hence you’re fired. Sometimes people survive it. Sometimes it’s also genuinely meant to help improve your performance. One could argue that if you have a good feedback loop with your manager it won’t ever get this far, so mostly this tool is just used to get rid of unwanted people. Some companies have a quota of people to be put into this, e.g. Amazon.
It's not just implemented by tech companies, it's pretty standard across the board for salaried positions.
Good to know! I worked in finance & consulting before and have never really seen it there or heard of it. Maybe I got lucky with the areas I was working in.
Not all PIP are that bad. Unfortunately it's mostly a final chance type situation. Most decent managers try and sort problems out long before it gets to PIP levels. When it happens, it's a final chance to turn things around. It also formalises the evidence gathering that they tried to fix it, but couldn't.
Unfortunately, some companies abuse it. They also tend to be the ones with high staff turnover however, so it looks a lot common.
My man if you frame the question as 'would you have any advice for the manager to help them improve how they lead' (or choose any area of skillset I.e how they delegate tasks or disseminate information, etc) vs. Giving "feedback" you might find it easier.
I always ask two questions to guide me.
Could this help me?
Could this hurt me?
In your scenario it's no, yes, which means I wouldn't say anything.
It’s also worth asking if this could this help or hurt others.
OP has a potential opportunity to ensure other people are not subjected to what OP was subjected to.
Only rational reason would be that others may not have to deal with bad management. But honestly not a hill I’d be willing to die on.
Do you work at Amazon?
Not Amazon but some other not so well known place like that yeah.
What was the PIP was for? (I won’t be mean)
Honestly we just didn’t get along. I can handle many things but not the micromanaging, overtly enthusiastic type of manager where you can’t be sure you’re even getting credit for your own work.