this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2023
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[–] ClutchCargo@sh.itjust.works 89 points 1 year ago (20 children)

Let me add some context from the perspective of an airline pilot who is also is a company training captain.

All modern transport category aircraft are equipped with a system called TCAS, or Terminal Collision Avoidance System.

TCAS operates by interrogating the TCAS system of other aircraft in a defined proximity ring based on some variables like altitude and rate of closure and resolves a climb/descend/level command to each aircraft, which we pilots train regularly to execute. The system is a near perfect solution to deconfliction when collision is probable.

With daily average flights in the US alone around 45 000, the amount of “near misses” is an incredibly small percentage. In 15 years of flying TCAS equipped aircraft, I’ve had 5 actual TCAS RAs (RA stands for resolution advisory - the actual avoidance maneuver)

Another way to look at it is: when was the last mid-air collision in the US, or even the world involving TCAS equipped airliners? The only one that comes to mind is the DHL-BAL mid air in 2002, which was a result of the one crew not following the TCAS instruction.

This article can fuck right off.

[–] HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world 32 points 1 year ago (6 children)

For those that don't speak plane, this is like saying every red light that tells you to stop and wait for someone is a near miss.

Pilot above is saying they got a red light 5 times in 15 years... hell, they got a give way 5 times when there was actually something there would be more accurate.

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[–] paintbucketholder@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Another way to look at it is: when was the last mid-air collision in the US, or even the world involving TCAS equipped airliners? The only one that comes to mind is the DHL-BAL mid air in 2002, which was a result of the one crew not following the TCAS instruction.

A significant part of the report focused on near collisions on runways.

TCAS doesn't mitigate that, right?

[–] HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

There are other systems for runway collision avoidance. This video outlines both how they work and an actual runway incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj7nG6gJqsU

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[–] sunbeam60@lemmy.one 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

A pilot who’s also a training captain?! Come on, MentourPilot, it’s you, isn’t it?

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[–] anlumo@feddit.de 83 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Based on the videos of near misses on YouTube, the safety margins are so enormous that even an event classified as near miss is not really recognizable by a layperson, because the two airplanes are nowhere near each other.

[–] Seraph@kbin.social 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Guessing "near collision" means one plane had to divert a few degrees before continuing course? Yeah totally normal, you don't want them to be anywhere close to what you and I consider as "near".

[–] Alex6511@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

They usually go up or down as opposed to left or right, but near miss is usually just anything that activates TCAS in either aircraft.

[–] abhibeckert@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

AFAIK "near" means "in a minute's time, you might be within a thousand feet of another aircraft".

Which means 99.99% of the time they didn't "need" to divert course, but they did out of an abundance of caution.

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[–] Pips@lemmy.film 14 points 1 year ago

Yes, but the layperson's perspective doesn't really matter here and it's worth reading the NYT piece. The underlying issue is that air traffic controllers are overworked and making mistakes due to staffing shortages and mandatory overtime while working a mentally taxing job. There are legitimate concerns that if this isn't addressed, we could see actual collisions and casualties.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It seems silly to minimize this.

Even if the distances seem great to you, if the FAA says "that's a near miss" and "we're operating outside of safety requirements", that means that if you roll the dice long enough you WILL have a crash.

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[–] elbarto777@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Absolutely. But when the two objects are flying at 600 mph.....

[–] SulaymanF@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

The NYT article points to at least one case where the planes almost scraped skin to skin.

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[–] Peanutbjelly@sopuli.xyz 68 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Can someone be sacked for these stupid fear mongering presentations of what should be fairly banal topics? If there was actual reason to worry, we would point out the constant remarkable disasters which should discourage you.

[–] TacoButtPlug@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wish. I'm so entirely sick of sensationalism and shitty science writing.

[–] Unsustainable 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's only going to get worse with AI writing the stories.

[–] ericisshort@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

That all depends on how it is trained and/or regulated. You could train a model to avoid sensationalism, but with no motive other than profit, it will definitely get much much worse.

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[–] Pips@lemmy.film 7 points 1 year ago

Not actually sure this is banal? The story is a staffing shortage of air traffic controllers and several near misses due to them being exhausted. Just because there hasn't been a problem yet doesn't mean there isn't a problem at all.

[–] Amilo1591@lemmynsfw.com 66 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Looks like the TCAS system has been doing a fine job, which it was designed to do.

For those who don't know, there is a system onboard every modern airliner that has one job: detect planes at (roughly) same altitude, heading towards each other. It then very clearly tells one plane to pull up while telling the other to dive.

Pilots are instructed to follow TCAS above anything else they might hear from controller or captain.

TCAS is why we have nearly no mid air collisions, especially considering the amount of planes sharing the same crowded space near airports.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 20 points 1 year ago

This is cool, but I'm annoyed at how blase this whole comments thread is.

Even if we were to go another ten years without a crash, the traffic controllers are burning out. That's not fair to them. That's not fair to make people work at the edge of their capability, struggling each day to manage to provide people another unappreciated close call.

The FAA should set requirements on air traffic controllers per flight or day and enforce them. Not enough controllers to fly safely? That's a real shame that flights have to be cancelled.

If it affected passengers and CEOs, this issue would be solved much faster.

[–] HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

We need Mentour Pilot or 74 Gear to make a video tearing apart all the fear mongering in this article (not saying it's totally invalid, but it's massively overblown). But basically, a "near miss" in commercial aviation is "this plane momentarily transgressed the very generous mandated safety distances and triggered a resolution advisory in the cockpit of both aircraft which was complied with immediately." It is by no means equivalent to a "near colission" like they imply. The worst part of the ordeal was probably the reports the pilots and ATC had to file afterward.

[–] boomer478@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Immediately from the headline my first reaction was "well, the rate of actual collisions is near 0", so either they're very good at dodging each other, or what they deem as a "near collision" is actually quite a wide berth.

But then, this is the journalistic integrity we've come to expect from gizmodo.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'm annoyed that this article doesn't call out the people responsible for this whole ordeal. First: the FAA has been without a confirmed administrator for over a year.

"The FAA, which manages air traffic throughout the nation, has been without a Senate-confirmed leader since March of last year, when Stephen Dickson resigned halfway through his five-year term. Since then, the agency has faced understaffing of air traffic controllers, a technical outage that grounded flights nationwide in January, and several close calls between airline jets."

https://apnews.com/article/faa-acting-administrator-biden-buttigieg-079bbc6c1abb13b404946c75a06ec311

Biden has not made nominating a qualified candidate a priority. The Senate needs to stop dicking around and approve or deny faster, because they're the reason this stretches on. And Secretary of Transpiration Pete Buttigieg seems to only appear in the news when he's apologizing after people ask where he is when a critical piece of transportation infrastructure suffers a catastrophic failure. Maybe he's doing great things, but I'm not hearing about them, I'm just seeing signs of things not going well, and I'd like some reassurance.

I honestly thought that Transportation was going to be the thing that Biden and Buttigieg would be best qualified for, and I've been pretty baffled by the lack of management going on.

[–] Natanael@slrpnk.net 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/22/politics/phil-washington-committee-vote/index.html

The GOP aide said that because Republicans remain unified in their opposition to Washington’s prospective leadership, “his nomination is on life support.”

About a nomination made by Biden last year. Without a majority he can't force it through.

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[–] eroc1990@lemmy.parastor.net 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Collision avoidance is an automated system built into all commercial planes. These "near misses" aren't actually that close. Go look up TCAS and you'll see what margins they work with.

[–] sndrtj@feddit.nl 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Secretary of transpiration

🤣🤣🤣

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[–] 14th_cylon@lemm.ee 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

for the smartasses who once heard about tcas, so everything is, obviously, made up bullshit.

from the nyt article that gizmodo refers to:

“I saw the nose of the jet with his lights illuminated at a close range. It looked like a cover photo from Flying Magazine,” a commercial airline pilot wrote in March, after coming within 200 feet of crashing into another aircraft in the skies around Jacksonville, Fla. “This conflict was too close to risk any single life we had on board, much less the 198 souls traveling collectively on us.”

In another report this year, a pilot narrated nearly colliding with two separate passenger planes after landing in Tampa on a foggy morning.

“I noticed a dark silhouette of an aircraft that appeared to be moving directly at us. It was extremely difficult to see, but I yelled ‘STOP’ to the captain, ‘The aircraft is going to hit us,’” the pilot wrote. “The other aircraft never slowed down, and if we would have noticed it a second later we would have collided. There was a second aircraft following the first, and it did not slow down either, and it passed our wingtips within ft.”

Just after 5 p.m. on Aug. 7, a controller at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport cleared American Flight 1388 for takeoff to New York. The controller instructed it to turn right after departing the airport, but the American pilot incorrectly repeated the directions back to the controller, according to F.A.A. safety reports. The controller didn’t catch the mistake.

After the plane took off, it banked left instead of right, directly into the path of a Southwest flight en route to Austin.

A different air traffic controller realized the planes were on a collision course. He radioed in urgent tones to the American pilot that the other flight was just to its left — “a Boeing 737 sitting right there.”

The two planes came within a third of a mile horizontally and 300 feet vertically of each other before pulling apart.

A midair catastrophe had been averted by seconds.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/08/21/business/airline-safety-close-calls.html?unlocked_article_code=tWiqDFEyubuq-7-szj9zQJcp3aGo5UNrveBo6AA37UGq4_jvhtxJHjWDuUKiPEBOZVpr15IpzqhZUCGVZaiUvR28TM8X31bhoIoLvEpUjpCE0RtKxNydxkEvpFyicdi-9_9OGu_4_4eVh3CblE_Ld27CX0SgfWIC3hPTujXd-dWVzEp24JxIeis8Q7XLjVycHU-uMKX6Kw-8ygOFcZCm1kOdodPoEUlWckt-POQ62yOZWhbVPXNzwwsA3bDUq1z3-ds1CiahRdu0GoaropAo0hrSgZmMrOU9YQqoWO0GSwuaCqZJXIAyFmgkGOZdyRBguewITTiHlLo9d-lERJ12iSH4Mrp4uUA7ec8lp2wNFRZavMCEj2Q&smid=url-share

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

I experienced what they’re talking about. Plane was coming in to land. Suddenly the engines revved to the max and we tilted up. We flew right past the airport. The captain came in the com and said “Ladies and gentlemen you may have noticed we did not land. A Delta flight was on the runway where it should not have been. At delta they’re still learning to fly, and it shows!”

You could tell from his voice that he was pissed. To be fair I doubt he knew for sure it was pilot error instead of controller error. But anyway.

[–] c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

These people don't know how TCAS works lol

[–] Bugger@mander.xyz 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

At least it's nice to see them sticking with George Carlin's nomenclature.

Here's a phrase that apparently the airlines simply made up: near miss. They say that if 2 planes almost collide, it's a near miss. Bullshit, my friend. It's a near hit! A collision is a near miss. [WHAM! CRUNCH!] "Look, they nearly missed!" "Yes, but not quite."

[–] Unsustainable 4 points 1 year ago

Wow, I could actually hear George talking as I read that. Damn, I miss him.

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[–] rtxn@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No mention of the TCAS? Education time.

The ICAO requires all passenger aircraft to be equipped with TCAS - Traffic Collision Avoidance System. It is a last line of defense to avoid collision. When two TCAS-equipped airplanes are on a collision course, the TCAS modules will contact each other and negotiate, then issue corrective actions to their respective pilots - one to ascend, and the other to descend. Responding to a TCAS command is mandatory and overrules ATC instructions.

[–] SulaymanF@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

TCAS is the last resort. If that’s being activated, it means Air Traffic Control screwed up. The NYT reporting talked about how ATC is making more and more mistakes due to staffing issues.

[–] Disgusted_Tadpole@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I didn’t want to know that.

[–] WarmSoda@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

It's not actually true, so don't worry.

Edit. If you're going to reply with an "actually" comment, don't. Just go back to Reddit.

[–] meco03211@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It is actually true though. Just the FAA's definition of "near collision" is much much looser than what a lay person would think.

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[–] ocassionallyaduck@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

The article is clickbait. The margins of range for "near miss" is enormous to ensure such things don't happen. A "near miss" is usually still miles and miles apart, and only registers because two flights may be at the same altitude to avoid weather.

[–] over_clox@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

And just to think, some people actually think flying cars are a good idea... 🤦‍♂️

[–] skymtf@pricefield.org 3 points 1 year ago

Decision Height: Climb Climb Climb

Other plane: Descend Descend Descend

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