As always, when Steam does one thing, Epic does the opposite.
But still, Steam doesn't forbid all AI content. It requires developers to have rights over the content on which it was trained, which seems logical.
this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2023
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And impractical, because that effectively eliminates all popular models I believe
Man this is one legal mess we’re going to have to iron out as a society. I see both sides, obviously a creator doesn’t want their work to be utilized in a way they don’t approve…on the other hand we severely limit ourselves on AI development if we don’t use the collective work of society as a whole. And policing may be a LOT harder than people realize…taking that too far while it protects authors and creatives may ultimately mean falling behind in this area to competitive countries.
For games, at least it kind of makes sense to want to use a model that doesn’t have things trained from libraries or television/movies. You don’t want to be talking to an NPC in a Star Wars game that keeps referencing Harry Potter as an example lol…might be a little immersion breaking haha.
But also, AI usage could bring development a step forward. Indie devs may be able to produce AAA quality experiences on their normal budget, or conversely hobbyist may be able to create Indie-level games.
I see AI bringing us potentially marrying a lot of silos of entertainment in the future. We may move beyond movies, TV shows, gaming into more collective “experiences” that combine the best aspects of all of these mediums.
Idk what the answer is but it’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
It really just requires a single step of indirection. Instead of indie dev using AI directly, they pay Joe's Asset Shack for their assets which may or may not be generated.
If you train on AI generated art, you get bad results.
Can you explain how that seems logical? It makes it impossible for anyone but the mega-rich to use. AAA developers alone will be able to reap the benefits of generative AI and outcompete indie devs who can't afford models that meet these ridiculous restrictions.
It'll prevent indie artists from having their work plagiarized over and over without payment from indie "devs" who honestly shouldn't have the right to exist as "developers" if they can't afford to actually hire artists and such.
It'd be one thing if they made an agreement to get assets from artists for cheap or for free as a favor, but just plain putting them all out of business permanently by letting a machine steal their work forever is another thing entirely.
I disagree, for several reasons. First off, you'you're trying to paint developers who use generative AI plagiarizing other's work without supporting that claim with any evidence. Then you go on to further and start insulting indie developers by insinuating they're not real devs and have no right to exist. These personal attacks conveniently don't address any merits or drawbacks of using generative AI. You should judge them based on their products, not budget or resources.
You end it all off by arguing a slippery slope of catastrophic consequences without evidence or reasoning for this can even happen. Not only that, but you predict that using generative AI to create content will “put them all out of business permanently by letting a machine steal their work forever”(without a shred of evidence as to how this is even stealing). Without you realizing it, this rule could turn Steam into a corpo-only playground by giving them exclusive use of the most powerful cutting edge tools that can save thousands of staff hours, saving only them wads of cash but also giving them a leg up on learning how to use these tools to enhance their work, discover new forms of expression, or to challenge the boundaries of art.
Your comment is elitist and doesn't reflect the reality or generative AI in game development, and misunderstands our rights to give IP holders more power over creatives than they deserve. I suggest you do some more research and open your mind to the possibilities of generative AI, instead of dismissing it as a threat or a cheat. AI training and use isn't only for mega-corporations. We can already train our own open source models, so we shouldn't let people put up barriers that will keep out all but the ultra-wealthy.
I recommend reading this article by Kit Walsh, who’s a senior staff attorney at the EFF, a digital rights group, who recently won a historic case: border guards now need a warrant to search your phone. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Common Tim Sweeney L
This is actually ultra rare Tim Sweeney W.
No need to act like it's breaking copyright laws when in it's current state it's not even defined.
Tim Sweeney ok with garbage games polluting the Epic Games storefront.
At least then there’ll be more than just the stuff they bought on there.
Typical pick-me energy from Sweeny here.
Let's see how fast EGS has to deal with AI copyright infringement.
I doubt they will. Their merchant contact very likely stipulates that publishers are responsible for any copyright issues in their product.
As always when steam does one thing, epic always does the opposite.
At this point it feels like Tim Sweeney is a generative AI which has been exclusively trained on taking a data set from Steam's and Gabe's decisions and inverting them. And that's it.
I'm with Tim Sweeney here - why restrict creativity with arbitrary restrictions like that? We already have some amazing 1-person games, how many more we'd have with this immense productivity boost? I'm excited for more games even if that means more trash out there, I have the brain power to sift through it if it means another Stardew Valley.
Because it is copyright laundering, which is ilegal. We are just too early in the tech to have it established. But see cases open against Microsoft's Copilot.
I'm surprised people here on open source, free software project are defending copyright so fiercly. AI is learning not copying and even if you disagree - fuck copyright and fuck protectionism. There's so much shit to do in this world and we're back to "looms will end the world" nonsense. The propaganda machine is rolling hard on this one.
Open source software has specifically devoted much of its efforts to ensuring it never breaches those copyrights.
They might look at Oracle SQL DB and say "Damn, that looks so useful and well-written. Well, I guess we could copy its codebase and pretend we wrote it ourselves...but it's probably safer to re-implement it from scratch." Then you get alternatives like MySQL.
That's a fast example that probably ignores extended history of database wars, but you get the idea.
Dude the whole foss movement was founded by one dude who hated copyright. It's even called copyleft. Lol
You dont seem to know what you are talking about, or are dissingenous.
Copyright is the tool that allows to enforce GPL. The same with other free and open source licenses.
You seem to be leaning towards "permissive" libertarian licenses like MIT and BSD. Those don't care much about the end users (I got your code, now fuck off I can do whatever I want with the modifications, including never sharing them back and making the whole thing closed source).
But for GPL and licenses that protect the rights of developers (including the right to ask follow-up developers to keep the code open for the benefit of users and developers), copyright laws are the tool that enforces that.
The term "copyleft" is just a meme.
You seem to be awfully ignorant of the history and I suggest you get back to it. Copyleft and free software is fundamentally anti copyright. Copyleft and GPL is legal play against copyright because guess what - we don't have the power to change the entire legal framework. I've been foss dev for over 20 years now so might as well fuck off lol
The problem is more that generative AI is trained on the actual work done by other, actual people. And we have no legal framework so far how those people should get paid in turn.
Plus, let's not for a moment imagine that Sweeney is saying this out of a firmly held personal belief. He's entirely based on his reactionary stance to Steam. Steam goes against generative AI -> Sweeney is in favor of it. If Steam would say they're against eating live babies, you can sure as hell bet he'd sing praises for that, too.
I agree with both your statement about AI training and Sweeney. However, I do believe there is a legitimate argument for using generative AI in game development, and I therefore also think Sweeney has a legitimate point, even if he's doing it as a reaction to Steam.
Something oft acknowledged as okay in art (or any creative endeavor) is inspiration. Legally, we can really go even further, saying that copying is okay as long as the thing being copied is sufficiently transformed into something that can be considered new. Say, for example, different artists' versions of a character such as Pikachu. We might be able to recognize them all as Pikachu, but also acknowledge that they're all unique and obviously the creation of one particular artist.
Why is this process a problem when it's done with technology? I, as a human, didn't get permission from someone else to transform their work. It's okay when I do it, but not when it's done algorithmically? Why?
I think this is a legitimate question that has valid arguments either way, but it's a question that needs to be answered, and I don't think a blanket response of "it's bad because it's stealing other people's work" is appropriate. If the model is very bad and clearly spits out exact replicas of the inputs, that's obviously a bad thing, just as it would be equally bad if I traced someone else's work. But what about the models that don't do that, and spit out unique works never seen before? Not all models are equal in this sense.
Why is everyone have to be paid for everything? The real dillema is wether AI is learning or is it remixing and the science is on the side of learning while all grifters on the side of remixing. All of these lawsuits like the gettyimages one are for profit. They are grifting off this and people so blindly fall for this propaganda thinking they are protecting "the little guy" when big majority of world's copyright is owned by mega corporations. Fuck that.
I wonder if you would be so adamant to defend AI if it could copy your work, and even your exact style by prompting your public name. I am going to bet on no
I'm a software engineer and AI can already do a lot of my programming and it's great! Most of my software is FOSS - so your bet is very wrong.
If somehow AI kills programming and puts me out of job then that's great! I'll find another job and we'll be living in objectively better world because code is suddenly infinitely more accessible and powerful :)
So, to me this protectionism thought process is very alien. Especially when it comes to something relatively meaningless as entertainment.
When you chose a FOSS license you explicitly say that you are ok with derivatives of your work. These artists never distributed their work under a license where they allowed AI to be trained on it and make derivatives of it.
AI is far from replacing programmers. It can replace some simple boilerplate, but is nowhere near understanding the logic behind applications. So you simply say this knowing you are safe for tens of years more.