vegan

I am a hexabear user.
I see a post in the empoc community that I have an opinion on; I am white, I do not comment, my comrades deserve to express their opinions in peace.
I see a post in the in the anti-cishet-action community that I have an opinion on; I am straight, I do not comment, my comrades deserve to express their opinions in peace.
I see a post in the neurodiverse community that I have an opinion on; I am neurotypical, I do not comment, my comrades deserve to express their opinions in peace.
I see a post in the vegan community that I have an opinion on; I am a carnist, >>TARGET LOCKED<<

The poor countries like India, Nigeria, Uganda and North Korea eat diets closest to veganism BECAUSE plant foods are the cheapest foods, not carnist subsidized McFood.

This is nonsense. Yes, global South countries do eat less meat compared to first world but they aren't vegan or vegetarian. Wasn't there some statistic about 75% Indians not being vegetarian.

The reality is people get really defensive when you mention meat consumption. I do not think I can make someone not eat meat by arguing with them. Its too much of a 'treat' for people. To an extent, similar to religion, people get really defensive about that too.

Also its not just online, people irl also just as defensive.

As long as non-vegan leftists aren't anti-vegan, I really am not too bothered by their existence, at least relatively speaking. I find the fact that anyone, regardless of political ideology, consumes animal products to be an unpleasant fact to acknowledge. Still, I think it ultimately all comes down to ignorance versus malice. When a non-vegan leftist just hasn't adequately considered veganism, it's much less bothersome to me than, like I said, when they're actively against veganism. Of all the viewpoints you could change people's views on, veganism might be the hardest because it requires a drastic move to a different way of living. To follow through with their newly acquired view that animal liberation is crucial comes with a hefty amount of changing their actions, and that can definitely make it hard to convince someone to change, especially if it's radically different from the lifestyle they're accustomed to (i.e. convincing a vegetarian who only consumes dairy every now and then to go vegan is much easier than convincing someone who eats ham and cheese omelets every morning for breakfast on top of meat in every other meal to go vegan).

It's also worth noting that people take the criticism of animal product consumption very personally. If a vegan says "Eating meat is ethically wrong," an omnivore who's never met that vegan in their life might feel personally offended because they don't want to feel ethically wrong as an individual. When I criticize carnism, it's a critique of how it's been engrained in so many of our brains, and it would be better to take that mentality out of our brains, as a society, as much as possible.

If carnists admit that you are right about your view that consuming animal products is wrong. In that case, they'll feel inclined to disagree because if they agreed with such a viewpoint, they'd either have to A) live with being a hypocrite (which is considered very shameful for a lot of people) or B) actively make lifestyle changes to veganism that they would find "too inconvenient" for them.

Dear carnists in the replies who need to debate bro every point: I hope you all get early ED from the industrially murdered sentient animals that you don't feel bad about hurting.

Edit: thank you mods for cleaning things up

The leftists in my IRL circle are often vegetarian/vegan or trying to be. Some are carnists, but zero do the anti vegan thing. I've had anti vegans come and go. The end up having wrecker sort of personalities. Like what sort of "leftist" would make anti-veganism part of their praxis.

In regards to dealing with them, I'd win the battles when it was easy, but avoid a massive struggle, as our energy is limited. If you're getting in an online battle, don't stress the individuals who debate-bro every point. Just make your point and go, and block the debate bro types. If you meet an anti-vegan leftist IRL, hold back and conserve your energy, as they'll likely get outed as a wrecker sooner or later.

I think I got all the carnists, but please let me know if I missed any.

Some "leftists" are so toxic I'd rather have a conservative as my roommate than them.

I'm in a Telegram server that's otherwise very queer and very radical, but when veganism gets brought up (and boy do they love to bring it up like it's the biggest deal in the world right now) it's always some upsettingly reactionary meme that looks indistinguishable from a 2010 4chan meme about ugly whiny feminists. And I know I can't say jack shit because it's either have friends/contacts or be ostracized for pushingback on reactionary shite. 🙃 I don't even care what personal choices they make, but damn they could atleast update their talkin points to something post GamerGate level reactionary shite. Other than that the hardest part about veganism isn't that I'm so used to eating certain things it's that you really have to learn to cook and prepare your own meals a lot more with veganism, there aren't as many prepackaged options I can rely on when I'm too depressed or don't have the spoons to cook.

As with all reactionary positions among allies or comrades, we must envision how to build a world in which they are abolished through practice and consciousness.

This is not just because we have duties as socialists or whatever, but because it's the only way we can, as individuals, practically organize without developing misanthropy. You won't just find carnist socialists out there repeating absurd reactionary talking points and reverting to bullying behavior to punch right on this. It's also not the only time you'll find people, including socialists, draping themselves in an identity in order to deflect from a criticism. Socialists, particularly Western leftists, are also pissbabies that fall apart during basic disagreements, though luckily more and more are developing the skill of patience and seeking understanding.

So, to move past it, you have to focus less on the reactionary they are (on a given topic) and instead on their capacity to eventually change or to indirectly help us build by putting more people into the pipeline.

For a non-vegan example, there are many racist socialists out there, having absorbed the base level casual racism of their societies as well as any personal peculiarities. You actually can't operate as a socialist in the West without contending with this. If you made your org truly antiracist in the sense that you purged everyone holding onto any casually racist views, you'd no longer have organizations at all. There is casual racism in black socialist groups, in indigenous groups, in South Asian groups. Much of it internalized. If we couldn't handle that racism and try to correct it, we would have no organizations at all.

I would recommend getting vegan comrades so that you can have a safe place to retreat. When you run out of steam fighting with reactionary sentiment, they can be a way to recharge. They will also be how you win people over. One person saying veganism is good is just a person with the right opinion. A small group is an organization that can recruit and influence.

Yeah, it's some thing, isn't it? It's like, someone should be able to recognize an evil act for what it is, instead of pulling this "actually veganism is about environmentalism" or "we should forget about veganism and focus on other issues" or "the evil of carnism is merely hyperbole" like I'm seeing in the comments under this post — no, carnists should just think, "I am doing a bad thing right now, I should not do this, why am I doing this instead of doing the better action?". No "that huuuuurts!!! >:(((" should be heard from a carnist whenever someone calls thon out on sy nonsense, even when vegans' critiques are very harsh — as they rightfully should be — rather we should only hear, "Yeah, I could and should do better". Tolerance of rightful criticism is a show of real virtue and strength of character that all self-described leftists should aspire to.

The problem as I see it is that many people are still to some extent hung up on a very sort of unproductive, non-materialist framework of morality. They to some extent still believe that committing an evil act gives them an evil "essence" — therefore if they believe themselves to have a fundamentally good essence, as most people would (who wants to see itself as evil?), then this belief in a "good essence" is overpowering enough to make them redefine what an evil act even is, just so that they don't need to confront their own immorality. We call this "cognitive dissonance". It's pure and simple liberalism and individualist thinking, which has no place in any self-purported leftist.— Attitudes towards veganism can then be reflective of the broader brainworms that someone has.

And I suppose this puts Me in an awkward spot as I continue to consume animal products regardless of fully acknowledging that it's a bad thing to do. But oh, I feel a bit Bad about it each time, and I Try To Do It Less Oft— awh shut the hell up, what am I expecting, pats on the back for doing literally less than the bare minimum‽ Lmao. Tough love is better for such a case, maybe. But at least in this framework where I can recognize evil for evil, this means that I can try to identify the barriers and the brainworms that keep me from aligning my actions with my values: it's a baseline, a foundation, far more productive than liberals flailing their little baby-arms around and crying about any questioning of their decadence. Although we must also be careful that the "barriers" don't end up becoming an excuse for getting set in immoral ways: a barrier is after all only a barrier as long as it's being pushed against.

A positive morality, one that is actively done, one that shapes the world and oneself, is always far superior to a negative morality — a passive morality where evil actions are simply temporarily redefined as good and moral whenever it's convenient.

But all this being said, I don't really have any answers for what you can do about carnist leftists, how to cooperate and be productive without going insane... One part of me says to never stop explaining, like Sankara said, and to always be uncompromisingly harsh and thorough in your critiques; another part of me says to "separate the wheat from the chaff", to identify where your mental resources are best allocated, compared to who is the biggest drain on your mental resources for the least progress. Aside from that I don't really know, someone else said to focus on your own actions in front of changing others' minds, and that sounds reasonable to me.

Edit: Damn the rules say "no omni apologists or carnists", why did I read that as "no carnist apologists"? I guess I'm not supposed to be here quite yet. Shoot.

Edit 2: Or is "no carnists" just supposed to mean "people who consume animal products and try to justify this"...? This community might like to clarify its rules more.

I'm probably being a lib by commenting here regardless, though, it's not like my opinions are at all original or important.