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Durandal
joined 11 months ago
I’ve been watching an insane amount of M43 videos lately.
haha.. I feel you. I binge watch videos about stuff when I'm researching it.
Right now, I kind of feel like that the performance beast (high image quality days) + pocket rangefinder (travel or daily carry) is a really attractive setup, like Lumix G9 plus GX85, or E-M1X plus E-M5 III.
I really couldn't come up with a "perfect camera" that covered every base... and honestly I think it's physically impossible for me. I like the feel of the larger full size DSLR bodies in hand and I like the little tiny M43... so having two makes the most sense for me. Since I'm fine with older bodies the prospect of getting two cameras for less than buying one new camera is appealing. Just a note.. the Lumix GX8 is an upgrade over the GX85 in a few ways without being THAT much bigger, so might look at that. I really leaned into picking a "system". I love my EM5II so far... but I know these lenses will work if I get a Lumix G9II or OM-1 later on so I feel better about investing. It's the same with my canon.. I've almost exclusively gotten EF glass so it can be used on a full frame body if I got one down the road. Practicality aside... I'm also just enjoying having different stuff with a different feel to mess around with so swapping systems (canon and olympus) is more fun than chore.
I want to feel the improvement, but without breaking the bank
The EM5II is from 2015... and it's so feature packed that I'm still learning the toys in it. The IBIS alone is a game changer for some stuff. Also "focus peaking" which is giving you focus indicators on manual lenses opens up a lot of manual lenses that I might have avoided before... which are dirt cheap comparatively and often lighter weight.
Yes, I would aim for 450mm+ full frame equivalent. From experience, I feel like 450mm in full frame is great, 600mm isn’t much of an upgrade, and 800mm is awesome (but heavy).
Yeah, absolutely has to do with what you shoot for sure. I have a 70-300 and felt it just was always a little too short for me so the upgrade to the 150-600 was worth it.. even though it's like a bag of bricks to carry lol. But I'm using it for long distance wildlife, mostly birds. The size and weight are definitely something I have to consider before I leave the house though... so it will be interesting to see in a couple years if I fully transition to M43.
I guess the deeper depth of field and image stabilization is a huge plus for handheld macro, even though a full frame setup (with a different lens) will clearly capture more light and push the ISO further (or use a flash).
Doing some macro stuff you can just shoot. If you really get into macro shots though... you will want a flash, and a diffusion hood no matter what camera system you use. Since I didn't want to invest in a ton of new glass for the occasional macro shot, I picked up an inexpensive set of extension tubes for my canon setup to do macro shots. I'm considering getting a set for my Olympus as well. It's a nice "hack" because it turns any lens you have into a macro (to different degrees) for $20-40 total.
I would probably get one of those “do-it-all” lenses you’re talking about, as well.
There are pros and cons with everything. A wide to telephoto is great for versatility but is going to be larger and you won't be able to get as fast of a lens overall. So it will come down to what you end up doing. If you end up getting a smaller camera that you carry everywhere, you might find you're leaning into one or another style and enjoying certain things more or less. I never liked prime lenses that much until I started carrying one around more but I have come to appreciate them. Also... with your discussion about low light, a prime lens will likely be good because they are so fast... especially once you start getting into the longer ranges. I really like this little 14-42mm but it's like f3.5-5.6... so I'm considering getting a really fast prime. 7artisans makes a 55mm f1.4 that's tempting me for around $130. Looks like it's on sale for $107 right now.. huh.. I'm not sure if I'm saving money or not because these are all starting to go into the "well... it's not THAT much" territory haha
That’s exactly why I’m hesitant to commit to one system or the other. I’m asking myself “do I really need something this light and tiny? Maybe I don’t, perhaps my current setup is already small enough and I won’t care much about a smaller camera. But maybe I do, and it will be a game changer when I realize it”.
I feel you there. I played that game for a loooong time. That's how I talked myself into getting an older body and investing in the lens system. I haven't regretted it yet, if that helps heh. I will point out that MPB has a 14 day return window... so if you get it and a week later you realize "wow.. this isn't it..." there are options. I don't know if there are any catches... I don't think so... but I'd make sure. I believe UPP does as well. No clue on KEH but their prices can't match MPB and UPP most of the time.
Options are too volatile right now, on all platforms: Craigslist, eBay, Roberts Camera, KEH, MPB, etc. I’ll have consider my options carefully when I get my money from KEH.
For me I ruled out everything but the "reputable" sites because I had a limited budget and if something like craigslist or ebay was a lemon it would be wasted money. With MPB and UPP... they warranty the items and are giving it a once over before they even list it... which gave me a lot more peace of mind. My camera body from UPP fell under a 1 year extended warranty even which was cool.
I’ll start with one of those bodes plus an all-purpose wide to mid range zoom and see how I like it for “everyday” stuff.
That's a good starting point. You might also consider a small prime lens like a 20mm or 35mm because they're so freakin' tiny and you can get a very fast lens in those sized for a reasonable price, they will be fun for shooting while wandering and if you go with a M43 you could probably stick it in a pocket (jack or cargo pants at least heh).
If you do finally decide on something I'd love to hear back and see how it goes. :) 📷
The GX8 has IBIS, but I’m sure it pales in comparison to the E-M5iii (5 axis). So panasonic was leaning towards stabilized lenses so they would work on any camera body... and olympus was leaning towards ibis so it was lens agnostic. So if you use a panasonic lens on a panasonic camera some of them will do a "sync" stablization which uses both in lens and in camera to make a "more stablized" total. There's so many details to keep track of heh. For me the IBIS on olympus being 5axis sounded really good and was well reviewed... and from what I had heard their lenses were sharper across the board. Not that the panasonic lenses are bad, just that the lower end (non pro stuff) was sharper overall. I liked that they're lighter weight as well so that I'm not getting a big "surprise this lens weighs as much as a small horse".
Olympus E-M5iii + Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 EZ
I have this lens for my EM5ii and it is quite sharp and tiny af. That's what's showing in that picture I posted, if you hadn't noticed. It extends when in use about 2x but still small. I have mixed feelings about the EZ portion of it but overall it's a really nice little lens for just wandering around. With the crop factor it's a 28-84mm which is a nice range for just an all around lens to do landscape, street, portrait. That bee photo I posted was that lens... the MFD is like 9 inches.
I grabbed a couple videos comparing the mark ii and the mark iii from some more M43 focused youtubers that I've liked just to give some comparison for you talking about those specific cameras.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biOmDEROWJ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh96vJ5MQEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bid2fAIxkNY
I was looking for a lumix GX8 but a couple big deciding factors for me were: better IBIS, weather sealing, and price. I could find the EM5II for 400ish... but the GX8 was staying around 600.
Plus one budget telephoto for whatever “kit” I end up deciding to get.
I don't know sony line-up at all really. The M43 side has some really cheap (even brand new) zooms that are well reviewed. a lot of the 40ish-140ish range (before 2x). Kind of puts you into that 70-300mm equivalency which is a really solid "walk around and take some wildlife pictures" sorta lens for me... and these are like the size of a soda can! Keep debating just getting one.. bhphoto has them new for like $130 on a sale right now... mpb has been sitting around 80-100 in "excellent" condition. Only reason I haven't is because I have those telephotos for my canon and it feels silly to duplicate heh.
That’s a great tip! I didn’t know that was a thing. I’m browsing their pre-owned section now, that’s actually amazing. Thank you for sharing!
Absolutely. :) I kept hearing how good the peak design "slide" was and vacillated for a long time because of the price. Glad I jumped on it though, I've been really happy. I have a ton of their stuff now and I love how they use that same quick connector and always give you a couple more than you need for putting on other stuff. They even sell a pack now of just the latch system so you can use it to adapt existing camera straps if you want for a cheaper alternative, which is kinda cool.
Something else I was going to bring up... there are a lot of camera and lens rental shops around... depending on prices you might be able to rent something to test out if they keep it in stock. Might be that these cameras are too old... IDK.
Another thing is you might find after a year of using that this or that feature is lacking or unused or whatever. I didn't think I needed a smaller camera for a while but I find myself this year wanting to just walk in the park with a little camera some days which spurred me on. You might find that you just enjoy whatever one you want and then want to fill the gaps with something else. These "used but checked and warrantied" sites like mpg et al really put my mind at east buying used gear so I felt like a lot of the pressure of price was eased.
Included a picture of my 7D2 with 50mm next to my EM52 with 42mm to see the size difference "IRL". Thought it might be a fun comparison.
I wish I had some more useful information about the video side of things but it's really not my thing. The a7 (starting with the 3 or 4 idr) have been touting the dual native ISO thing which would be applicable to your low light video... but you're talking about the more expensive and slightly larger bodies.
Nikon was the most ergonomic by far. Holding their cameras feels so comfortable and natural, it’s amazing.
A little of that is probably because it's what you're used to... but a big thing about those larger bodies is that they are made to be comfortable in the hand. One of the reasons I wanted to upgrade from a mid DSLR to a full DSLR was to that it felt better in my hand to hold especially with larger lenses on it. It's always a trade off between ergonomics and size / weight. Something to consider is that many cameras have things you can add or change to adjust the ergonomics to a degree. The EM5 was just a tad too small for my hand but I got a little, inexpensive handle that adds like a centimeter to the bottom and a bit of a grip and now it's great to hold one handed. I wouldn't buy something that you hated but there's definitely things you can do to adjust them.
Sony struck me as more interesting than Nikon. That’s because they have actually pocketable camera bodies for cropped (rangefinder style)
Yeah... rangefinder style bodies are definitely going to feel more "portable". You sacrifice some of the in hand ergonomics, but if you aren't holding it for an hour or two straight staring at a bird waiting for it to do something... it's less of an issue lol. One of the points between the olympus em5ii and the lumix gx8 I was tossing around was the body style. The rangefinder style does feel different and slim for an EDC sorta camera for sure.
Olympus is actually rather impressive. Their bodies are so small and well-built, everything is smooth and easy to use. And yeah, those lenses are tiny.
The conversation about olympus vs panasonic circles around the lens stabilization a lot because they choose different methods and have evolved from that. On the older style cameras like my EM5II they chose to go with IBIS (full 5axis which has been really nice coming from a DSLR) so they don't include any stabilization in their brand lenses. That means their lenses can be half the size and weight which is really cool. It also means I get some stabilization on manual 3rd party lenses which is nice. The newer panasonic like the G9II, IIRC, handle IBIS on non-first party lenses better than olympus in their current flagships.. but it's one of those things where you have to look at each one. The cool thing is that M43 is M43... while you might have a lenses and camera combo here and there that isn't great... mostly they're interchangeable so you could get a small, cheap Olympus and later get a brand new panasonic and the lenses would still fit (which was my plan heh).
I have ruled out all bigger camera bodies for now. So, I’ll have to pick between Sony A6x00 series, Panasonic GX or Olympus E-M5.
It might be worth considering having more than one camera as the end goal. I realized I wouldn't get everything I wanted from one camera because having a large ergonomic dslr with nearly infinite battery life... and a tiny light mirrorless were mutually exclusive. With used sites it has gotten a lot more reasonable to have a couple systems. It sounds like the sony is really appealing to you and if you were going to buy into two systems Sony and M43 would be a solid choice, IMHO. You're going to have a good selection of bodies and lenses on the sony side so you can get some nice lenses and then update bodies if you want to later on. Also with how popular their stuff is I would imaging you wouldn't have a hard time selling your system if you changed your mind in a couple years either. M43 being an open standard has multiple manufacturers on board so it has a lot of good lens choices. There are some fun "artistic" lens makers like 7artisans and laowa making some interesting stuff and they usually make for sony and M43 so if you got into any of those your bases are covered.
So, I’ll have to pick between Sony A6x00 series, Panasonic GX or Olympus E-M5.
I have heard those 3 choices recommended over and over online. I don't think you can really go wrong with any of them. The video side is going to be the biggest sticky point with the older bodies. Even getting the EM5II I still kind of want a GX8... there's a couple features I like and the body style is appealing. I'm beginning to see why all these camera youtubers have a wall of tiny cameras behind them lol. Also... "lens acquisition syndrome" ... the struggle is real haha.
Thanks for the Peak Design strap recommendation. I have the clip and quick release anchor links, and I must say I love both accessories. I’ll make sure to check out the strap on my next trip to REI.
If you decide you like that system it definitely has a few fun things you can attach to those clips. I've got those little red dots hanging off all my stuff now. I got a hand grip (see picture above) on my DSLR. I got the wrist strap for the EM5II. I got the full size "slide" for my DSLR. I am considering getting one of the smaller ones or the adapter clips for the EM5II. I love the ability to add and remove as I go depending on how and what I want to carry. If you go to their site, they sell directly as well... and more importantly they have a "last call" for last years models that are being clearanced out as well as a certified and fully warrantied "pre-owned" section. I have gotten some good deals from them and all the pre-owned stuff has looked brand new but half priced. https://www.peakdesign.com/
Heh yeah... my supertelephoto is a commitment. I only carry it when I know that wildlife photos are what I'm doing. Ended up getting a monopod and a peak designs slide strap to help mitigate some of the weight. So I can sling it over my shoulder and carry it on my back now which helps. Highly recommend their strap system stuff if you haven't tried it... definitely lived up to the hype for me. I kept wanting another interchangeable lens camera for other days so M43 seemed like a good choice for my use case.
You're talking about wanting to do low light and particularly low light video... the newer sony stuff will just about blow anyone else away. I've heard good stuff about the panasonic's newer stuff... but sony is known for that. From what I've seen the quality of their sensor noise when it does start showing is more pleasant... more impulse noise than color... so you'll get salt and pepper noise which looks more like old film grain which can make things look more cinematic even.
If you want to compare dynamic range and usable ISO, DXOmark has lots and lots of charts for that sort of thing. I wouldn't take their stuff as the end all be all... read it more like a spec sheet so you can compare two different things. https://www.dxomark.com/sony-a6000-sensor-review-little-wonder/
The a6xxx series definitely sits at a reasonable price point for the bodies. IDK that much about their lenses or prices for that... but it does look like you could get a body for $300-600 on mpb in excellent condition. I have heard good things about the a6xxx series as well, so it could very well be a good jumping in point if you wanted to get into their ecosystem. Looks like DPReview did a few videos about that series of cameras... I'd check those out for sure. They like to split their videos into several sections... and have equal time for stills and video which will give a really good rundown of things usually.
I agree that point and shoot or bridge cameras are a a little silly these days. I have been looking into the M43 stuff because I can add a few different sized and featured bodies while sticking with interchangeable lenses that are part of the same system. Some of the M43 bodies are absolutely tiny, especially if you're willing to give up the viewfinder and only use the back screen.
I saw you mention in another reply about how the newer M43 seem to be not doing compact cameras anymore. It's hard to say if that trend will continue or not... panasonic seems to be doing more of that sort of thing still and offering things across the spectrum of use cases. I feel like the popularity of street photography right now will likely make some new compact things show up eventually. I would point out, also, that the sony a7iii you're mentioning is basically the same physical size as the OM-1 series... but the lenses will be half the size. https://camerasize.com/compare/#777,918 so your total kit size and weight will be much smaller.
I watched countless videos looking at little M43 cameras before I picked up the E-M5 II. The weather sealing was definitely a big bonus for a little camera. I don't care about video at all, so I was happy to go with the slightly older version. The better hand held "high rez" on the E-M5 III is nice, though I've heard the build quality is a little more plasticy. Personal preference really.. .it does reduce weight a bit. As for image quality... I have been very happy with my results. This is one of the first cameras where I've been mostly happy with the JPEGs that come directly out of camera. I still shoot RAW+JPEG but I find myself only editing occasionally when sharing which is nice.
Don't get me wrong, the stuff that comes out of sony SLR style cameras is really good. They definitely do some good stuff in their sensors. And if you get their G series lenses, they are very nice... but expensive. You've just mentioned the size and carry weight a bit and I've fixated on that. When I'm out birding, I always run into other people as well... and the rigs that people are carrying for sony, nikon, and canon are all the same size. A lot of people carrying 150-600 or 100-400 lenses... and they're huge. That was one of the motivations for wanting a second camera and adding some M43 into my lineup.
One of the things that I have done with camera and lens purchases is go to flickr. You can search hashtags by item name. So when I was looking for M43 I was comparing the omd em5 ii vs the lumix gx8... so I just searched for those and you'll get a bunch of real world photos that people have taken to see what things looked like. Same thing for lenses... searching for a lens make and model... and you'll see that lens how it looks on multiple different bodies. A good quick way to compare a lot of real world stuff and not the clinical shots that reviewers use. Both are useful.
The advice I've always received, and it makes sense to me, is pick a lens system. Lenses hold value and last longer than camera bodies, especially with digital. So if there is a system that has a lot of lenses you like and options (seriously fck canon and their no 3rd party rules) it makes sense to get those and get a body to match.
Good luck on the search. Try not to let the spec overload get to you... at the end of the day most cameras are pretty good these days. Once you've narrowed to some of the better ones, anything you choose will likely make you happy. :)
--edit-- Added a full rez image from the first day I had the EM5II taken with the 14-42mm kit lens. Unedited JPEG out of camera just so you can see the detail, as that was a concern you voiced.
Just a couple minor points to add to your consideration. IDK what your budget is but buying a used flagship camera is often better than a new midrange camera. The main difference you’re going to not be able to easily compete with is newer sensor tech but there are some really stellar older cameras.
You don’t mention what kind of photography you’re trying to do and that would make difference.
I picked up a used canon 7D mark 2 for about $350 used it basically perfect condition. Because this was a prosumer flagship at the time it has all the bells and whistles of that era. It’s my primary wildlife camera. I picked up an Olympus OM-D E-M5 2 recently for about $450. Their prices have bumped up a lot I think because everyone is getting into street photography. I’ve been having lots of fun with it. Got a 7.5mm Rokinon fisheye and a 14-42mm zoom. Been fun doing closeups on insects and landscape stuff so far. It’s very compact and feature rich. M43 lenses are much cheaper entry point than APS-C and FF are so for just having fun it’s way cheaper to experiment. Having IBIS is really nice too.
Both cameras have tons of customizaility. They aren’t the low light champs a full frame would be but getting some faster primes has helped with that. I picked one up from UsedPhotoPro and the other from MPB. They do a good job going over the cameras and showing you the exact one you’re purchasing and they offer 6-12 month guarantees on all the stuff they sell which is nice.
It sounds like you really want something lighter weight so M43 might be a good way to go. There are some really nice cameras in M43. The prices even new are less. Flagship Sony, canon, Nikon are all in that 5-7000 range and flagship Olympus and Panasonic are like 2000-2500 new. Something I decided was to get a used M43 knowing that because it’s an open standard any lenses I got would mostly work between Olympus and Panasonic if I upgraded to a new body. It’s also a good way to get a “pro” style more DSLR like body if you want and a super small pocket camera style at the same time and have a collection of lenses to choose from as the whim suits.
--edit--
Okay either you edited while I was typing or I didn't see before what you said your types of photography were.
As happy as I have been with my canon DSLR... I agree with you ( and many others ). Canon's policy about 3rd party lenses is utter bullshit... and their first party glass is way overpriced. Only their L glass can really outshine anyone and it's stupidly overpriced... their regular stuff you're better with sigma and since their new R system stuff doesn't play nice with that it's a non-starter really. (Now if you wanted to go with DSLR, it's a different story but those are chunky and heavy... my wildlife rig weighs 8-10lbs depending on what I bring for just the camera itself)
With you starting your post about camera size and mentioning the nikon d3200.. which isn't a large DSLR... I really think the M43 format might be worth looking into. Another big advantage of M43 is even if the body is the same size, the lenses will be considerably smaller and lighter than comparable APS-C or FF lenses. So size and weight will be greatly reduced. The crop factor on M43 is 2x (as opposed to 1.5x nikon APS-C and 1.6x canon APS-C) so getting more "reach" with a lens for things like birds is easier with smaller focal length glass as well. Since most of them will have good IBIS since it's easier to stabilize physically smaller sensor as well. Not that new APS-C and FF cameras can't have good IBIS.. but for example my OM-D E-M5 2 has several stops of 5 axis IBIS on a camera from 2015. I can handhold shots at 1/2 second shutter speeds. Newer cameras will be even better. For hiking et al, the smaller size and weight will be a bonus. For street photography it's one of the go to systems because of the small size. Etc.
The 4K video is going to be a stickier subject and looking into hybrid cameras is much trickier. I recommend checking out petapixel's youtube. That's where the DPReview guys ended up and their stuff is great. It focuses on both still and video so a review of anything will be well rounded. https://www.youtube.com/@PetaPixel for their older stuff DPReview is still around for now as well https://www.youtube.com/@dpreview I also really like MicroFourNerds stuff if you wanted to look at a ton of different reviews focused on M43 system. https://www.youtube.com/@MicroFourNerds
Oldest console probably Atari 2600
Oldest PC Commodore VIC20
Oldest electronic handheld Parker Brothers Merlin
I use nextdns to adblock my entire connection since it lets you configure multiple sources of filters like ublock but on the dns level.
That's a great deal, very nice!
I feel you on that lumix series. I like the way they look and they have good reviews, but the prices are inflated right now for some reason which sucks.
Absolutely where I ended up. I knew I could get myself in at a certain point and then upgrade and swap things around later as needed, so it wouldn't be wasted. I've been getting really good deals on some quality budget glass for the olympus. I did end up picking up that olympus 40-150mm for $80 in what appears to be perfect condition from mpb. I can tell it's a more budget lens because of some of the stuff being plastic... but the clarity of the glass is absolutely exceptional for that price... and it weighs nothing. I'll include the first couple pictures I took with it here.
For a lens that is half the size of a can of soda, it has that 80-300mm FF equivalent. I can see why people rave about this one as a starting telephoto.
So just so you can see the size of things... That's a Rokinon / Samyang 7.5mm Fisheye, then the 40-150mm Telephoto, and the 14-40mm EZ on the camera next to my computer mouse.
The only thing about those super zooms like the 14-150 is that you can sometimes sacrifice quality. IDK that much about that lens, but I got myself a little camera bag that's like 12 x 8 x 5 with a cross body shoulder strap for idk.. $15-20 online. It holds the camera, the lenses, the flash, the cleaning kit, the filters, the batteries, the charger, and the filters... and there's still room left lol. So Carrying a bunch of M43 lenses is super easy and light weight. Doesn't make me feel like I need to worry about super zoom coverage like I did with my canon. Always boils down to what kind of photos you think you'll be taking. My tactic was to get the 14-42mm based on recommendations online as a "walking in the park lens" to get used to the camera and then I've just been filling in the blanks as I go. Going on MPB and UPP and just poking around there's so many fun lenses in that $60-150 range that it's almost impulse purchases at that point. I'm still considering some of the manual ones from 7artisans as well... even new they're cheap and I keep hearing how they're good. I'm considering picking up extension tubes for my EM5ii to do macro shots at some point like I did for my canon. I still kind of want that 7artisans 3.5mm fisheye but I absolutely don't need... but it seems fun.
It's been interesting for me. For fast action in lower light... there is no escaping needing good sensors and fast lenses. But because of the IBIS and some of the fun tools olympus puts in their camera software (live composite is so cool... pretty sure the one you're getting has that)... I have been able to take stills in lower light by using longer exposures and still getting cleaner shots. So I had to kind of reset how I thought about the exposure triangle settings.
I'm excited for you. Using this olympus from 2015 has convinced me that I absolutely want to get a modern flagship M43 camera at some point.