this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2024
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chapotraphouse

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Not that anybody asked, but I think it's important to understand how shame and guilt actually work before you try to use it for good.

It's a necessary emotion. There are reasons we have it. It makes everything so. much. worse. when you use it wrong.

Shame and guilt are DE-motivators. They are meant to stop behavior, not promote it. You cannot, ever, in any meaningful way, guilt someone into doing good. You can only shame them into not doing bad.

Let's say you're a parent and your kid is having issues.

Swearing in class? Shame could work. You want them to stop it. Keep it in proportion, and it might help. (KEEP IT IN PROPORTION!!!)

Not doing their homework? NO! STOP! NO NOT DO THAT! EVER! EVER! EVER! You want them to start to do their homework. Shaming them will have to opposite effect! You have demotivated them! They will double down on NOT doing it. Not because they are being oppositional, but because that's what shame does!

You can't guilt people into building better habits, being more successful, or getting more involved. That requires encouragement. You need to motivate for that stuff!

If you want it in a simple phrase:

You can shame someone out of being a bad person, but you can't shame them into being a good person.


It was nice to see this put so clearly. This election cycle has left me exhausted and demotivated, and this hits it square on the head.

stolen from https://grungekitty-77.tumblr.com/post/754482938951892992/fun-fact-that-was-literally-what-inspired-me-to

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[–] Orcocracy@hexbear.net 14 points 3 months ago (1 children)

This is an interesting argument, but is it really true? People actively do stuff to avoid creating a situation where they feel guilty all the time. For example, if a person invites you over for dinner and says you don’t need to bring anything, but you still bring something anyway because you know you would feel guilty otherwise.

[–] Moonworm@hexbear.net 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I think that's a little different. It's both existing within some pretty complicated and old etiquette surrounding hospitality and, perhaps more crucially, is actually the host actively not shaming the person and creating where the guest can go above and beyond - even if the whole thing is performance. Take as counter-example, if someone were to invite you over and then really get down on you for not bringing anything, do you suppose you would want to go back over there for dinner?

[–] Orcocracy@hexbear.net 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Perhaps the complexity of a clear example suggests problems with the rather broad claims in the original post. I’m not sure if the typical response to a telling-off is to always shut down.

To follow your example, if your grandma tells you off for not bringing something you’re probably going to bring something next time