this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2024
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I don't use XMPP but it seems like such a no-brainer
Not matrix? XMPP is a good idea, but the wildly different levels of support among clients cause problems even back in its heyday Matrix solves some of that, fully encrypted, chat history stored on the server in encrypted form, supports gateways to other services.
Definitely not matrix.
Those problems you speak of about XMPP are not really a concern anymore and haven't been for a while.
Matrix on the other hand is very difficult to implement, and currently there's only one (maybe two?) viable implementation choices. It is way over complicated, resource intensive, and has privacy issues.
Does it have privacy issues compared to XMPP which doesn't enforce the privacy extensions? I figure they are about the same there. Asking genuinely as I do not know other than Matrix might leak some metadata.
And quite frankly, I really wish we'd just agree on one or the other. Would love to host an instance and move some people to it but both are just stuck in this quasi-half used/half not state. And even people on here can't agree what should be "standard."
Xmpp definitely wins in privacy. What is there to privacy more than message content and metadata? Matrix definitely fails the second one, and is E2E still an issue for public groups? I don't remember if they fixed that.
XMPP being a protocol built for extensibility means it will be hard for it not to keep up with times.
On your point of picking one or the other, I'd say pick the one you like and bridges will help you connect to the other. But XMPP came way before matrix, and I believe they fractured the community instead of building it.
There's a good reason all the big techs built on top of xmpp (meta, Google, etc). It's a very good protocol and satisfies modern demands very well.
Okay so how does modern XMPP protect this? When I last used XMPP, some (not all) clients supported OTR-IM, a protocol for end to end encryption. And there wasn't a function for server stored chat history (either encrypted or plaintext).
Have these issues been fixed?
It's not perfect yet, but it's much, much better than the old days.
OMEMO is supported by every major client, and they interoperate successfully. Unfortunately, most clients are stuck with an older version of the OMEMO spec. It's not ideal, but it doesn't cause any practical issue, unless you use Kaidan or UWPX, which only support the latest version.
All popular clients and servers support retrieving chat history now too.
In practice, I've been using it for several months to chat with friends and family, and haven't had any issues.
Honestly I just haven't looked at Matrix yet. Unfortunately like many of the privacy-centric protocols it's mostly used by people trying to hide something.
I don't know much about "mostly", but check out the channels on the server kde.org, where they do discussions regarding visual design, development, documentation and all that good stuff.
Sometimes, if you mostly find what you don't like, you might be looking at it from the wrong angle. For instance, I found a few, very desirable communities on Reddit, so much that I am finding it hard to leave. And that is the few that I searched for. Only realised the toxic communities, when I read others' rants on it ^[and from the recommendations. Definitely don't checkout the Reddit recommended communities or you will get said toxic stuff.].
Thanks!
This is really not accurate. Matrix is not designed to be a super privacy first protocol. It's like Lemmy in the it's designed to solve a problem and be a useful federated collaboration tool. It borrows features from a number of popular messaging platforms. Message history is stored on the server but encrypted client side so privacy is preserved. It supports group chat rooms. It supports voice and video. And most importantly, it supports bridges- you can connect your matrix to other services that are completely incompatible with matrix using a bridge. Perhaps the best example of this is Beeper, which is built on matrix. They are trying to replicate the user experience of the old app Trillian- beeper can link with a number of chat services including Google messages, slack, WhatsApp, telegram, signal, etc. Thus you get all your chats in one place.
I feel like I would enjoy Beeper but I just cannot get past the name
What's wrong with Beeper?
Nothing objectively, it just sounds so stupid to me that I have an irrational aversion lmao
(This is not an insult, I just had a realization that I think might affect you)-- do you know what the name comes from?
Years ago there was a thing called a beeper before everyone had cell phones. It was a one way paging system-- you'd give your friends your beeper number, they'd call it, type in their phone number, and their number (or whatever they dialed in) would appear on your beeper. You'd then use a landline phone to call them back (early versions of the system had no text or reply capability, only numbers and only one-way).
I always thought it was a cool name. But thinking about it I realize someone less than maybe 25-30 years old might literally have never encountered such a device. Much like a 5.25" floppy disk or rotary dial phone, they went out of style years ago and a young person might never have encountered one.
Curious if that's you?
You know, I probably should have looked into this... yeah, this is me lol. I've seen floppies and we had an old rotary phone, but I've never heard of a beeper. It still sounds weird but at least there's a reason.
It's all good. Like I said, no insult at all. There's no reason why you would ever have encountered a beeper, it's one of those things that once SMS came around everybody just collectively decided to move on from. Unlike floppies or rotary phones there wasn't some continued use for it.