Europe
Europe community on dbzer0. Intended to be a place to discuss European news, politics, or just general topics from a European perspective. Since this is on dbzer0 expect the community to lean more leftist-anarchist but a wide range of views are accepted here (within reason).
Rules:
1. No Bigotry or Hate Speech
Any forms of Homophobia, Transphobia, Queerphobia, Racism, or Ableism will be met with swift and harsh action and will not be tolerated here whatsoever. Bigots will be banned immediately on-sight. This includes apologia of it.
Trying to be politely or intellectually bigoted i.e. "Just asking questions" won't be tolerated.
2. No Zionism
Any forms of Zionism or Zionist rhetoric will not be tolerated here, this includes Zionist apologia, accusations of antisemitism towards anti-Zionists, or blatant denial or downplaying of the genocide towards Palestinians. Any attempt to uphold or prop up the IHRA definition of antisemitism, will be treated as Zionism.
Anyone engaging in Pro-Zionist sentiment or apologia will be actioned in accordance with its severity.
Note: Trying to find loopholes or whataboutery to see what is or isn't genocide denial or Zionism will be treated as a violation of this rule. Don't test us.
3. Stay Civil
Please maintain civil discourse in the community. Do not engage in arguments with others, name-calling, or insults. Note that calling out bigotry or Zionism is not considered an insult. In heated arguments users are encouraged to or even required to disengage failure to do so will result in mod action.
4. No Misinformation
Spreading of misinformation intentionally in this community is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Spreading misinformation hurts the credibility of the community and can mislead people sometimes in dangerous ways. Users who intentionally post misinformation as articles, comment answers, or in attempt to win arguments will be actioned swiftly.
Note: This includes Russian and Chinese propaganda. Users with a history of such posting will be banned on sight.
5. No AI Content
Please do not post articles or content primarily created using generative AI. Generative AI content may contain misinformation or be lower quality and thus is discouraged. Posts and comments featuring it will be removed. However this community does not allow or tolerate Anti-AI trolling or hostility and users who engage in such behavior will be actioned for it, additionally Anti-AI trolling violates Rule 3 and often Rule 4 so it is generally unacceptable already.
Note: Rules 1 & 2 may be subject to preemptive mod action due to their severity, and they apply to a user's entire post history. Not just this community.
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Buddy, nothing you just said is true. Not a word.
Russia invaded Ukraine. How was Ukraine supposed to "agree to peace" in the beginning, when they didn't start the war? Surrender? Then what? Why would Russia stop taking land if Ukraine simply let's them, without any resistance? You aren't making a rational argument.
As for who is "right" and who is "wrong"...it isn't about "good guys" and "bad guys". That's just a jeuvanile characterization that has no real meaning. It is objectively "wrong" to attack another country. It is objectively "wrong" to steal land from your neighbor.
It was objectively "wrong" for the US to attack and invade Iraq...wasn't it? Even though they made up excuses about "fighting terror", and "WMD's", and spreading "freedom and democracy"? These are all lies that imperialists use to justify violence. Now, it's Russia lying in order to justify their use of violence in order to steal land and resources from their neighbors. Imagine being so gullible that you actually believe they are "deNazifying" Ukraine, or "defending themselves against NATO". The level of willful ignorance it must take to look at what Russia is doing, and just shrug like it's justified, must be exhausting. Just the idea that somehow it's Ukraine's fault for the war starting in the first place, when they are the ones being attacked, is ludicrous.
And as I said in a previous comment, that didn't seem to register at all in your bizarre backwards narrative...what exactly do you consider "negotiations"? Unconditional surrender seems to be the only thing on the table as far as Russia is concerned. What is Ukraine supposed to negotiate here? You call it "moving the goalposts" to even mention the land that Russia has stolen as being something to negotiate FOR. What exactly is an acceptable amount of land to give back? Because expecting Ukraine to agree to giving up any land, simply rewards Russia for their hostility. That is unacceptable, no matter who the aggressor is.
The US was "wrong" to invade Iraq. But even the US left Iraq after the war was over. Explain how Russia is somehow "right" here, when they're planning on keeping what they've stolen?
As for "cheering on Ukraine's destruction"...man, that is beyond insanity. Russia is the aggressor here. They can stop the violence any time they want to, by simply leaving Ukraine. No one is forcing them to keep fighting. That's the difference between attacking and defending. If you stop attacking, you get peace. But if you stop defending yourself, you die. Russia is the only one in this situation that can "make peace". Ukraine doesn't have that option, because they aren't the ones attacking Russia.
Your Israel analogy makes no sense. Ukraine didn't attack Russia. They didn't start the war. This is the point you keep intentionally missing.
Your entire argument is based on that fundamental misrepresentation of the facts. You are shifting responsibility from the attacker, to the one being attacked.
A better analogy is Syria. The US actively interfered with Syrian society by amplifying anti-government sentiments in social media. Then when things escalated to the point of active revolt against the government, they used that unrest and the deaths of protesters to launch an "intervention".
They would have probably toppled the Assad government within weeks, if Russia hadn't stepped in to help them. Their support allowed the Syrian government to last years against the US invasion, u Tim the US had lost all momentum in the country.
See...that analogy matches almost exactly what's happening in Ukraine. Except I Ukraine, the Russians were the ones interfering in Ukraine's internal politics. And the Russians are the ones that eventually invaded the country by force. But this time, it was the West that stepped in to help the local government defend itself. Russia thought it could take the whole country within a matter of weeks...but instead Ukraine has held them off for years.
By your logic, Syria should have simply given up and let the US have whatever they wanted. By your logic Assad, and by extension Russia, are solely responsible for every single death that has occurred as a result of their efforts to stop the US. By your logic, the US had every right to take what they wanted from Syria, because they were the stronger force. All that death that resulted from the US invasion, could have avoided, if only Russia had stayed out of it, and let Syria fall.
Does that sound about right to you?
Yes. All of that is true. And now we are seeing an almost exact parallel situation in Ukraine. The only difference is that it's Russia doing the meddling and violence.
You are so willfully ignorant to the actual facts here, that you can't even admit that Russia is doing exactly the same thing. And lying about it, just like the US did in Iraq.
Anyone looking at this objectively, laughs when they hear the bizarre cover stories that Russian state media outs out, to try and normalize their crimes. It is just as transparent and obvious as anything the US came up with during the Bush administration.
The fact that you cling to this narrative that Russia is somehow "saving Ukraine from themselves and the evil West", is kind of pathetic. Especially when you also admit that it's all about the strong taking whatever they want from the weak...and how the weak should thank them for it. It's like listening to someone justify their settler colonial bullshit, by infantilizing the oppressed population.
"Oh, they had nothing before we came along and gave them civilization." "What would these peasants do without us to guide them?" "If we don't provide them with strong leadership, they would be lost."
It's the same old bullshit that every imperial nation tells themselves, so they can sleep at night, while committing horrendous atrocities on others. You just refuse to admit it, because you identify with the oppressors.
How were they involved? Where is there any evidence of that?
What you are doing is denying Ukrainians agency in determining their own future. They have the capacity to rise up against a government that lied to them, and broke their promises, all on their own. Why would you assume they are simply mindless puppets on someone else's string?
This is why I keep saying, your argument is fundamentally flawed. You are ignoring facts in favor of wild speculation. And you are completely ignoring the perspective of the actual people involved in all these events. You blame the US for things that Ukrainians feel very strongly about, while ignoring the entire history of their country that has led to them having these very strong feelings. It is willful ignorance.
You are simply pretending that this fantasy version of reality is true...but the very real and less interesting version, is not. This is how propaganda works. You have bought a narrative where Russia is "saving Ukraine", by literally blowing up buildings full of Ukrainians. Like, what the actual fuck are you thinking? How does that make any rational sense to you?
All because "America bad"? That's not a good enough answer. It's fiction.
You did a lot of honest work here. Thank you for your service!
I am intrigued how the up/down vote ratio though. Tankie brigade in the room?