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Why don't the whole planet just use UTC+00:00 / Universal Time without time zones?
(programming.dev)
this post was submitted on 31 May 2025
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Because that would be a nightmare. "I'll meet you for lunch at 2AM", "No, I had a huge breakfast yesterday". You would need to relearn the times every time you went to a different place, "oh, right, the restaurants only serve lunch until 10AM" or "Sorry sir, but there's an extra fee for night time services starting 1PM". Those are much more likely day-to-day phrases than scheduling a meeting with someone from another continent. And you don't gain anything by this, because whenever you're communicating across timezones you can simply use UTC as a standard and everyone knows how to convert that to their own time. So there's no good reason and a lot of drawbacks.
I am baffled that needs explanation!
Only because we're already familiar with the current way of doing things, though. If we had all been on UTC for our entire lives, it would be a simple matter of getting to a new place, asking when local noon is, and going about our business.
"Hey, when is local noon here?"
"'bout 0330."
"Cool, thanks. Want to get together for drinks tomorrow night? Say, around 1045?"
They're all just numbers. They have no inherent meaning, only what we imbue then with.
It would get a little bit tricky with the date switching over in the middle of the day, of course. In my mind, that's the biggest reason.
So every time you deal with somebody in a different location, you can't assume anything about the hours and times you have to ask them or go look it up Even if you have a decent idea where they live because you're not going to know the time disparity of every city out there.
So… like it is already? Ever tried to call someone in a different time zone? It’s fine-ish 1 or maybe 2 hours off, but much beyond that still requires a minimum of research.
Okay, I get it, you don't know time zones already so you have to research every time but most people don't think of the other people please.
Your ring up a person, they go "why the fuck are you calling me at 09:45?", sounding really upset. You don't understand why. He's in a place where that means it's the middle of the night and as a local he understands it.
Oooor
He could just say "do you know what time it is here? It's two am!" and you'd understand.
No, in this hypothetical scenario, he wouldn't complain about it being 0945 because he's grown up in a world where that's ambiguous. He's going to say, "Don't you know it's the middle of the night here?!"
No he hasn't. Never moved a or traveled outside his own city.
That why this "make everyones time the same" is about as smart as an idea as shoving Lego up your nose.
Are you suggesting that this is a world without the internet or international television programs? He's going to know that hours are different everywhere, especially if he has friends in other regions.
Only because the current way is the one you know. In this alternate universe where the whole world has always been on UTC and someone posted a question on Lemmy asking why the whole planet isn't divided up into 1-hour offsets with their own times, that universe's version of you would be just as irrationally angry with that universe's version of me for daring to suggest that the time zone idea is no less irrational than the UTC idea.
I can't believe you're being serious. Literally, I have a hard time believing you aren't pretending to be that simple.
You don't understand time zones or geopolitical history either it seems, and you're imaging people from thousands of years ago to have a concept of universality. I can't thank you enough for the roaring belly laughs I've gotten from reading your brain farts.
You're not proposing a single improvement, you're making the system actively much much much shittier
Except it is, because that's how hours work. You probably don't know where they come from either
I know it seems to you like you're making sense, but you're not, because you're ignorant of so many assumptions you've made, which if changed, would be like giving ancient Romans the GPS instead of them using sundials and that said Romans would've magically been able to consider that theyre noon is two hours after "the real" noon, which is based on.........?
You're assuming an awful lot about me based on complete ignorance and using those assumptions to justify a really bizarre level of abuse.
I'm not. That's literally the premise of the idea proposed here. The fact that you don't get that is really making me question your reading comprehension abilities.
Correct. I'm not. As I've noted several times now, I'm not proposing anything. I'm just pointing out that we have a significant bias toward the system we already know.
Yeah, they were chosen more or less arbitrarily by the ancient Egyptians because there were twelve significant constellations they followed, which led to a sort of base-12 number system they used for stuff related to the sky (months and hours in particular).
Again, units and numbers have no inherent meaning. We made it all up. A day could just as easily have had ten hours of 144 minutes each, or 40 hours of 36 minutes each.
The fact that you don't understand what I'm saying doesn't mean that I'm not making sense. And I think there's ample evidence here that you're just not reading carefully.
Ok. Deciphering your word salad here, I think you're trying to suggest that our current 24-hour day and time zones were somehow inevitable? Which...I mean, obviously they aren't, since there are many cultures that independently came up with different time systems.
There's a Hindi clock that divides the day into thirty hours. Roman timekeeping was divided into 12 hours, but that time was measured from sunrise to sunset. Byzantine time uses the same division of days into 24 hours, but starts a day at sunset, meaning that the start of a day changes within the same city throughout the year. France even tried decimal time for a while, where each day has ten hours, each hour has 100 minutes, and each minute has 100 seconds. All of these systems arose from different starting conditions, none of which were "giving Romans GPS" (they already knew the Earth was round) and none of which caused any problems with users going to sleep at different times of day.
The thought experiment here isn't "how could this have happened given existing conditions?" or even "what conditions could have brought this about?" but rather "assuming a world where some set of conditions brought about a true worldwide UTC without offsets, what would it look like to the users of that system?"
And this is what you've decided merits abusive behavior. Can't imagine what you're like about stuff that actually matters.
Oh another one of "me saying things doesn't mean anything, you can't deduce I meant something just because I said it!"
You are.
No, you're pretending to be a pseudointellectuel while missing the actual issues shoved down your face, because you lack understanding and your ego is 3 sizes too big for your skills
Exactly like I said. A pretentious pseudointellectuel and I'm not gonna teach you history. Do some desperate googling and then become ashamed
Again, they literally have INHERENT meaning.
Send me your address I'll order you a dictionary
"But but you're laughing at my rhetoric so you can't have read it"
Zzzz
By what fucking logic? You talk to me of reading comprehension :D
You don't understand the fundamental flaw in the system, but like I said, I'm not gonna be lecturing you, I'd rather watch you make a moron of yourself and maybe, maybe point out later what I'm talking about.
You talk to me of word salad while you're some pseudointellectual 14-year old twerp repeating these sad sixth grade history facts as some unbelievably arcane knowledge while not understanding the fundamental flaw in the whole system.
No, it's "you can't just unilaterally decide that I actually mean the opposite of what I'm saying."
Oh, for real? Well, if you've already decided what I mean, then by all means, don't let me distract you with reality.
No, I'm definitely a pseudointellectual.
I have yet to see you actually respond to the points I've actually made, only points you think I've made, so I'm not sure how you have enough data to determine that I "lack understanding."
I don't know what to tell you, bro. We have twelve hours because the ancient Egyptians liked the stars. That's just reality. I'd love to hear why you think it is, though.
Before you send it, I recommend you look up the word "context."
So, again, no actual argument, you're just hoping to keep this going for long enough to come up with one.
I didn't think there's anything arcane about something that can be easily found in a history book. But thanks for assuming I'm 14, that's very kind of you. I haven't been assumed to be that young in a long, long time.
You know, just because your short term memory is only ten seconds long, there's no need to rewrite the whole conversation everytime.
Or did you never develop object permanence and you literally can't answer a thing if it's not under your eyes, because you'll forget it exists?
When you're saying hot is cold and up is down, I haven't decided that your words mean the opposite. You're just wrong.
Noon, midday or the number of hours is anything but arbitrary. You being ignorant of the reason doesn't make you right, it makes you ignorant. Notice anything about the divisibility of the numbers? No...? Oh right, you're probably American, so that's probably offensive to ask you about your maths skills. Apologies, I do understand your country is going through a tough time.
I don't decide the meaning of your words. The world sort of does.
Like I said, I'm not your history teacher, and you are just completely ignorant of the subject. You have to know how dumb you are though, but your ego just keeps ripping right through.
See I could teach you. Then you'd pretend you knew it all the time. You're just a pseudointellectual lazy piece of shit who doesn't know the first thing about the subject and didn't even click "timekeeping in other cultures" when he did his pathetic Wikipedia browsing. Which is exactly why you insist on your silly kittle ignorance.
You're plain wrong. I will tell you eventually how badly, but now I'm just gonna sip on your dumb juice. So sweet.
Oh I haven't argued you at any point, and would never. I'd have an easier time teaching a dog to whistle, lol.
Because of your stubborn refusal to actually read anything I've written, I copy it back down in hopes that you'll see your own words and actually continue reading beyond the end of the quote. Though, admittedly, it's not going well at the moment.
Noon is not, correct. Midday is not, correct. But while the fact that we've assigned any particular celestial event a number is more logical than a horoscope, it's no less arbitrary. Are you truly suggesting that our lives would be significantly different if we all grew up in a world where a new day began at noon, and so we called noon 0000? Or if we began a new day when most people woke up, and so we indexed noon at 0600 so that people could wake up at 0000?
Yes, you going into that world from this one would be startled (or, judging by your tone here, deeply offended), but any version of you that grew up in that world would think it very normal and logical.
Interesting. Because I've given actual facts here proving me correct about the reason for these things, but you continue to assert that I'm wrong and there's definitely a reason (even though you won't say what it is).
You mean the fact that 12 is divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6? That is a nifty coincidence, isn't it? Definitely super useful. Good thing the Egyptians liked twelve constellations, huh? But it wasn't in any way intentional. Might be why it caught on, though.
Thank you, I appreciate it. It, uh...it's not great over here.
I just went to look it up and see if I'd somehow misremembered from the books I read a while back when I was hyperfocused on the subject. But lookie there! "In ancient Egypt the flooding of the Nile was, and still is, an important annual event, crucial for agriculture. It was accompanied by the rise of Sirius before the sunrise, and the appearance of 12 constellations across the night sky, to which the Egyptians assigned some significance. Influenced by this, the Egyptians divided the night into 12 equal intervals. These were seasonal hours, shorter in the summer than in the winter. Subsequently, the day was divided into intervals as well, which eventually became more important than the nightly intervals. These subdivisions of a day spread to Greece, and later to Rome." (emphasis mine)
Egyptians liked the stars and thought those 12 constellations were important, so they divided up the night into that many hours. Just like I said.
I probably wouldn't need to pretend, since you're pathologically resistant to actually reading what I write. In fact, you're probably going to reply to me about how "no, you idiot, it's because the Egyptians thought that a particular set of 12 constellations were important!" next, aren't you?
See, you keep on asserting your intelligence and telling me I'm wrong, but then just leaving the assertion there by itself and telling me to do my own research. It's not my job to prove your point for you, though. That's up to you.
I believe I already answered that assertion in the affirmative, yes.
Actually I did click that one just now! and it proves that whole thing I said in some other comment about how other cultures have different timekeeping systems which means that it's not inherent and is actually totally arbitrary! But since you didn't read that, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you didn't know.
Here's a dramatic paraphrase of our interaction so far.
Me: "I mean, A isn't any more or less logical than B."
You: "YOUR AN IDIOT A IS OBVIOUSLY MORE LOGICAL THAN B OMG YOU SHOULD BE SHOT"
Me: "What? That's a strange amount of rage for something so mild, but what reason do you have for your opinion?"
You: "LOL NO IM NOT MAD UR JUST TRIGGERED IDIOT. A IS OBVIOUSLY MORE LOGICAL THAN B AND I DONT NEED TO TELL YOU MY REASON BECAUSE YOUR SO DUMB YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF STUPIDHEAD. OMG YOUR SO MAD AND TRIGGERED LOLOLOLOL"
Me: "That...isn't actually a reason? See, here are a couple of reasons."
You: "SEE YOU DONT HAVE ANY REASONS AT ALL LOLOL TRIGGERED, A IS OBVIOUSLY MORE LOGICAL THAN B"
Me: "What? I just gave you reasons, did you not even see them? Here, have some more. And why do you keep yelling the same thing over and over again?"
You: "KEK YOU ARE IGNORANT, A IS OBVIOUSLY MORE LOGICAL THAN B, U DONT KNOW ANYTHING, DONT HAVE ANY REASONS LOLOLOL"
Me: "...blink twice if you're in danger, bro."
Ok, this is going to sound like an insult, but it's actually an honest question: are you literally a pre-teen? Because all this time I had been assuming you're an adult, but if I'm dealing with a child I should probably recalibrate my expectations. It would certainly explain your ludicrous position, your bizarre rage disguised under the laughter, and the phrase "dumb juice."
Wikipedia doesn't cover even the basics.
You keep writing essays because you're too fucking ashamed to admit you didn't understand what the word arbitrary means.
Remember how I've said, several times, that even your argument about 12, 24, 30 or 100 hour systems being "arbitrary" is wrong? Why not include that in your essay? Is it because you're ashamed of having been wrong, because you like to pretend to understand shit and pretend to be smart. Because online, there's no-one to mock you for it. Or, so you thought. ;>
You get angry because I refuse to give you the answers and the only place someone with your intelligence will look is fkin Wikipedia. The timekeeping in my culture isn't even mentioned there.
How many language did you speak again? ;>
I'll get back to you on your other pathetic essay tomorrow, just woke up to pee.
Again, just because you don't know the reason for a thing doesn't mean it doesn't exist, sweetums.
Oh no, you think you've "given facts", just like a child playing at kitchen with mudcakes has "actually cooked".
Again, just because YOU personally fail to see logic in something doesn't mean it doesn't have any. And it's just driving you mental having me not tell you the answers so you can pretend to have known all the time.
The fact you're writing every one of my "replies" as if I'm yelling it's just candy to my eyes, because it tells me you're fucking seething at me mocking you. Cheers bruv. <3
"Why don't you even look at Wikipedia?"
"UGH NO NOT LIKE THAT"
Bro, just admit that you're surprised I actually do know something about the history of timekeeping and we can move on. Or tell me where you think I'm wrong and we can move on. One way or another, this "huehue I know somethin u dont know" routine is getting really tired, so I'm going to start ignoring the unsourced nonsense.
Actually, they're a pretty standard length for me. I'm fairly verbose, and always have been.
Unsupported assertions are definitely a great way to convince me, that's for sure. We've definitely proven that.
Said, yes. With no support or evidence for your claims, so I treat them as nonsense.
I absolutely love being proven wrong, actually! I like learning new things, and it totally floors people when I admit that they were right and apologize. But you have yet to actually prove literally anything, so I'm not particularly hopeful about that this time.
It's just random insults if you don't have any facts to back it up. You look like an abusive fool, rather than like you've won an argument. I've been in online arguments, in one forum or another, since like...1995? Earlier? Not sure. There are definitely always idiots around to mock me for what they think is being wrong.
Not angry in the least. I'm having a great time.
Usually people with any evidence at all are super excited to provide it in defense of their point. The fact that you aren't even telling me what your evidence says indicates that you don't have any.
I read a book a while ago about the history of timekeeping. I honestly hadn't even seen the Wikipedia article until today.
But wait! I thought everyone had an inherent understanding of the current worldwide timekeeping method! How could there possibly be any other cultures' timekeeping methods?
Non sequitur.
I'm honored.
Pretty sure I told you that, just a few comments ago.
You have completely mischaracterized my entire comment.
No, I'm just more and more confident all the time that you don't actually have a point and are just hoping that I'll supply one for you in the process of trying to rebut your nonsense.
You're the one that came in swinging with insults and name-calling. The fallacies are the logical equivalent of shouting and banging the table. I quote your replies because I've seen enough bad faith arguments from you that I wouldn't put it past you to just edit your comment or intentionally pretend like I'm responding to something I am not.
You really are a pre-teen, aren't you?
Anyway, this one was way more boring than your usual. You keep on diving deeper and deeper into bad faith arguments, and that's just disappointing. You can do better than that.
You literally don't know anything about the history of timekeeping. That's the point. You keep pretending to, because you've read a Wikipedia article. And you don't see why you're being ridiculed?
The systems which humanity have used have not been arbitrary and every single "argument" you've made showcases your stupidity and ignorance.
How many languages was it you spoke again?
Give me your address and I'll order a "grammar for kids" book and a dictionary for you. In English, as I presume it's the only language you sort of understand.
It's not about the length of your replies, it's about who they're formatted like a teenager with Alzheimer's.
What do you mean "no support for your claims about timekeeping systems not being arbitrary"? You can't be serious. You just can't. You still don't understand what the word arbitrary even means?
:DDdddddd
This is the best wake up comment I could've read. Put a laugh in my day right away hahaha thank you. Also I don't believe a person like you has read a single book in your entire life.
Assertion isn't evidence. You have yet to actually say a single thing about why you think I'm wrong, just that you do. This is not how argumentation and debate work.
This isn't ridicule, it's just baseless name-calling. This is elementary school-level insults. If it were ridicule, it would have any evidence behind it at all. The longer you go without providing any basis for your claims, the more clear it becomes that you have none.
Every system humanity uses is arbitrary. We decide and agree that something arbitrary is useful, and then we decide to imbue that arbitrary thing with meaning.
Words didn't mean anything until we assigned meaning to them, and you can tell they're arbitrary because the same combination of syllables can mean something completely different in another language. For someone who claims to know multiple languages, you should be aware of that. Meters aren't meters because they have to be; we decided that the distance light travels in 0.000000003335641s is a useful amount of distance. We could've easily defined it as the distance light travels in 0.000000003335642s and it wouldn't be any more or less logical.
That's how humans work. We give arbitrary things meaning. You insisting that the shapes in the clouds are definitely sharks doesn't make them sharks. The shapes are arbitrary.
Contrasted with the complete lack of argument you've made.
Aw, buddy, you already tried that insult once. And it wasn't funny the first time.
Now that one's funny! Good job. I knew you could do it.
I mean, support your claims that there's something inherent about timekeeping systems. Something in our brains, or in the rotation of the Earth, or in the physical properties of light, or something that means that high noon has to be represented on the clock as 1200.
That's what "support" means. That's what evidence is. That's what any reasonable, good-faith argument has to include.
I am starting to think that you believe "arbitrary" means "random." But that isn't what it means. It means "randomly chosen," or perhaps "selected without impetus." The Egyptians didn't have to choose twelve constellations; nobody was forcing them to, and there wasn't anything inherent about them that required them to base a system of timekeeping around it.
You're welcome! I love knowing that I'm helping put some joy into the world.
Oh, thanks for the reminder, I forgot to log the book I finished yesterday.
You still can't even answer without making it like homework for yourself, singling out things as if this is some official debate. It isn't. It's just you equivocating.
"Wyaaa everything is actually arbitrary, EVERYTHING! So I was never wrong about it!"
The word "arbitrary" has a non-arbitrary meaning.
You can keep equivocating. It won't change anything. You're still wrong.
Yeah, I now I haven't explained to you in detail why you're wrong, but I assumed you can't be so stupid as to keep arguing that all time keeping systems are arbitrary when I point out the divisibility of hours.
Keep on lying about having read a book, surely saying you're not a moron makes it so that you magically aren't. You're ignorant of just how ignorant you are.
You definitely voted Trump with an IQ like that.
Do I need to paste the meaning of "arbitrary" here again?
Like I said, you don't even speak ONE language fluently while I speak almost a dozen on some level.
"EVERYTHING is arbitrary words don't mean anything I'm never wrong and I'm not lying or pretending"
When will you realise I've never taken you seriously, clown? You're my ENTERTAINMENT.
That's not too different from how it is now. In fact it might be worse, because once you know a time you have to remember not only a time but the offset that you know the time in.
Why exactly is asking for "what time is the local noon" more convenient than asking "what timezone is this"?
How is "local noon is at 2:45" somehow easier to adjust to than "adjust your clock by X hours"? You don't need to relearn every thing like what time breakfast is served when local noon is 08:50.
It's not more convenient. I'm just saying we'd have been used to that and just as weirded out by the idea of time zones if that was all we'd ever known.
No we wouldn't.
One of these is a logical thing, we measured time in the relative passing of days.
Having "our local noon is 0550pm" is dumb as rocks and nowhere comparable to time zones. Unlike some people have prolly told you, not every idea is equal.
Now go ahead and read what it's doing in China and see our glorious idea at work
How is "our local noon is at 1200" any more objectively logical? Midnight is an objectively arbitrary time to start the new date. The best you can say is that it's twelve hours before local noon, but even if you index off of local noon it doesn't make any more logical sense to put the 0 while most people are asleep. Someone who hasn't grown up with our clock might well say, "why would we choose a clock that puts the beginning of the usable part of the day at 6 or 7 for most people?" Calling the hour when people wake up 0000 or 0100 would make a lot of logical sense.
Numbers have no inherent meaning. We could make noon happen at 0000, 1200, 2200, whatever--and people would find it completely intuitive if they grew up in it all their lives.
I'm not saying that "every idea is equal." That's patently nonsense. What I'm saying is that, if you're going to have a 24-hour clock indexed to noon, putting noon at 1200 makes just as much sense as putting it at any other time on that 24-hour clock.
Sounds like the answer is "fine." People in Xinjiang wake up a couple of hours late, start work at 1100, have lunch at 1400, and often watch the sun set at midnight. They continue to live there and continue to have a pretty normal life. The only weirdness comes from talking to people in other time zones, which again would not be a problem if everyone in the world had started with this from their youth.
Again, I'm not trying to suggest that it's better. I'm just saying that this arbitrary choice about how to handle time around the world is not any better or worse than any other arbitrary choice we could have made; it's only because we know our current method so well that we think any other method is weird.
You don't know what "arbitrary" means..
Noon or midnight aren't arbitrary. They're the exact opposite. Noon is the middle of the day. The exact middle point of one revolution of our planet (roughly, days aren't actually exactly a day long but that's too advanced for you lol).
The exact middle of the day, recognisable to most people simply by looking up, is the exact opposite of arbitrary.
Uh, yes they do. That's why they're called numbers. "2" means || that many things and "5" means ||||| means that many things. There's literally an inherent meaning in them.
There's also actual reason as to why the day is divided the way it is, but seeing how proud you are of your overbearing ignorance, I'm not gonna educate you on what it is.
Hours weren't always the same length, it'd depend on the length of the time of day. Do you know what doesn't change? Noon being in the middle of the day. Because we're on a revolving piece of rock in space and no matter how much you stomp your foot and cry foul, noon will still always be non-arbitrary
What you need is a fkin dictionary bruh
Ah, some deeply meaningful willfull ignorance, because you can't admit you backed a moronic idea.
I didn't say they were. I said that the numbers we've attached to them are.
Strong words from someone who only reads three out of every five words.
Calling it the "middle of the day" is. It could very easily be the beginning of the day, or three-quarters of the way through the day. If you had lived with that your whole life, you would think it was normal.
Not as they're used in timekeeping. I'm sorry, I didn't realize I needed to explain something so simple to you as "the words I use are meant to be interpreted in the context in which I'm using them."
That's a lot of words to say "I don't know but there's probably a reason."
The real reason is "because the ancient Egyptians arbitrarily decided to divide it into twelve hours." As for indexing solar noon as 12:00, well, it actually didn't always; in fact, the word "noon" comes from the Latin word for "nine." The first hour of the day (when people woke up) was 1:00, roughly analogous to our 6am, and nine hours later (our 3pm) was "noon." The reason it became solar noon was that they observed a sort of coordinated universal time! Noon drifted earlier in the day as the center of culture drifted.
Sure it does. Other cultures make noon the beginning of the day, or make sunset the beginning of the day. Yes it changes the lengths of time periods. You only think it's weird because you've always known a world where noon was the middle of the day.
True. But noon as equal to 1200 will always be arbitrary, because we're on a rock in space and it didn't come with any numbers on it.
Once again, I beg you to actually use some reading comprehension. I haven't backed any ideas. But it's easier to sling insults than to read carefully and come up with a cogent response.
You keep with your naive argument about noon being arbitrary and pretend as if your proposal isn't like climbing up a tree arse first.
You're just wrong.
With your system, if you woke up after drinking for days, not knowing literally where on Earth you are, you would see a restaurant, read the sign and still have zero idea when it was open. You'd need to know where you are and "when" the times are. Ridiculous
With the regular system, you wake up anywhere in the world, look up at the sky, see it's roughly noon, and see a sign on a restaurant saying its open 10-21, you know you can walk in and eat.
You're trying to make yourself out as logical, but you're failing very fucking hard.
It's called the middle of the day, because it's in the middle of the day. Before it there's an equal amount of light as after it. Youre honestly going to stand here arguing that high-noon being in the middle of a DAY is arbitrary, without smelling a hint of irony?
Take a thing. Divide it exactly in half. Can you cut at an arbitrary point to make that happen...? Or is there like a thing where if you choose the exact point in the middle of that thing (like, an exact point, not an arbitrary one), then you get two halves which are exactly the same size?
You're clearly upset and projecting. Is English your first language? It's honestly amazing how often I end up correcting Americans on how to use English.
You didn't understand the point. I was talking about Romans. Happy desperate googling, mr angry-like-a-wet-cat!
You saying a thing doesn't make it so. For instance I could say that literally every word you said was arbitrary. It doesn't make it so, does it? Also, trying to use prescriptivism shows just how lacking you are in your linguistics conversational.
Me purposefully not replying to each of your childish retorts wouldn't help anything. You're just wrong but you'll never be able to accept it. You'll equivocate, possibly for weeks even.
I don't have any proposal at all, and until you get that into your head, I just don't see how you can possibly have enough of a basis to even continue this conversation intelligently.
Citation needed.
I. Don't. Have. A. System.
Bro, other languages exist. If you woke up after drinking for days, it's entirely likely that you won't be able to read the words on the sign and know whether it's a restaurant or a nursing home or a gambling parlor.
That there's what we call a tautology.
Nope. But you still aren't actually dealing with the reality that I'm not saying the word "noon" is arbitrary, I'm saying that the numbers we've assigned to it are. Remember, in the twelve hour clock, noon happens at the end of one set of numbers and at the beginning of the other set. In some timekeeping systems it's even weirder. Other choices could and have been made, and are even still in use.
I'm begging you. Give some indication that you are at all literate here.
Not sure what you're talking about. I'm having a great time watching you make a fool of yourself and froth at the mouth about how intelligent you are. It's hilarious.
Aw, sorry, I already noted that you're angry. You can't "no u" that one back at me. I'm deducting five indignation points.
...eh? I'm very clearly not being prescriptivist, since I'm the one taking about how the word has been used differently through time.
Are you feeding my posts to ChatGPT and asking for responses?
Ah, classic. "I don't have an actual argument, so I'll pretend like making one is beneath me and hope the other person makes it for me..."
"...and then I'll preemptively lay the table for me to exit the conversation with righteous indignation when I've used up all of my insults or gotten bored." Love it. Well done.
You don't understand what the word "arbitrary" means, lol.
I haven't laughed this hard in weeks.
With your imagined system of "if everyone had always lived with random ass times they would feel as normal as they do now".
No, they wouldn't, because unlike your ignorant-ass thinks, they aren't arbitrary. You don't understand the basic history of timekeeping and you have an utterly childish point, which is also wrong. Yes I know you're not directly proposing the use of another system, implications exist. You're just backing up on everything you've said after I rub your face in how stupid it's been, then you pretend you don't have a face full of poo.
It's ridiculous.
I speak 2 languages on a native level, one or two more fluently and a half a dozen in a "I could order in a restaurant" level. I'm pretty sure I know more expressions about time in more languages than you. How many languages do you speak?
This is why I keep replying. You're hilariously ironic. Remember you insisting how "numbers are inherently meaningless"? Scripts and languages change, sure, but most of the world uses Arabic numerals. :D It doesn't matter if you don't know the local language or "what time local noon is" or even if they're using the same alphabet, you'll still recognise a number like 14:00 - 03:00 and then look up at the sky and it's not yet noon and you'll know you'll have to wait several hours at least.
With as with an actually arbitrary system you might see numbers like 0748-5531 and have no fucking idea if it's even a time or even if it is a time, what time it's referring to, even if you know it's exactly midday.
But you'll not admit that laughable. Which in itself amuses me.
No shit, that's why I'm laughing at you. You're pretending like "noon" means nine because of its etymology, as in you're pretending as if you understand linguistics, when you don't understand that ignoring it's actual descriptive meaning of "mid-day" (which is why it's "high noon, because that's describing the position of the sun) is something even a first year linguist would never do. Hell, even if you had just read the basic wiki entry you'd know how ridiculous that is. But you're not about learning, you're about pretending you know things.
And I'm saying you are wrong in that. Because you are. You are wrong in saying that. Do you understand? You are incorrect. It is not arbitrary. Even the number 12 isn't arbitrary, neither is 24 or 100. That's not what the word means, sweetums. <3
Yes, I'm perfectly aware. Watching you prance around pretending to be smart is like watching toddlers bake mud cakes. It's cute how they think they're doing a credible job and you just have to act along so they can enjoy themselves. :)
Honestly you're literally making my sides hurt
Oh I'm not going anywhere, hunny. You're better entertainment than this show I'm watching.
Well, if you said it, it must be true.
So wait, is this a pivot, or are you still trying to claim that I'm advocating for this? I have completely lost track of what you're framing your abusive posts on now.
Anyway, your imagined system of "somehow the fact that the time when people wake up is called 0600 is inherent to our biology or orbital dynamics or whatever" is absolutely not more logical than the system that the OP has asked about. It's just as arbitrary (hey, yeah, look, I still know what that means!).
Once again proving that you haven't read the previous posts I've made. Come on, dude. Simple reading. That's all I'm asking for.
You have yet to actually prove this. Made lots of assertions, but you're just screaming "nuh-uh! YOU are!" over and over at this point and then spiking the conversational football as if it does anything.
Finally discovering what I was actually saying because you actually decided to go back and read it this time doesn't count as "backing up." I've been saying the same thing this whole time.
...congratulations? I'm not sure how that's relevant in any way to anything. If it's really important to you: you're very smart and special. I bet you make your parents proud.
Maybe. Or you'll walk up to the door of a veterinarian and wait around for five hours before you realize that people are bringing animals into the place, not walking out with food. There's also the problem of not knowing whether it's before noon or after noon (so a sign that says they're open for lunch from 1000-1800 would be useless if the sun is in a position where it could easily be 0700 or 1900). Or not being able to see the sun due to clouds or night or being inside. What I'm saying is that there are bigger problems involved in the situation you brought up, which is why I doubt anyone would care to solve the time problem. In this fictional, made-up world where the history of timekeeping went a little bit differently. Which you've somehow decided merits insulting me, despite you not actually having an argument that makes any logical sense. (Or at least not one you're willing to share with the class)
I admit it's absolutely laughable! You know what else is absolutely laughable? The idea that the current system makes any more sense! If you're trying to coordinate an event with someone just a few miles away but across a time zone boundary in our current system, you have to go to great pains to sort everything out and make sure nobody arrives an hour early or an hour late. Or, even worse, two hours early (which happened once to a friend of mine when he did the time zone math backwards). Despite being just miles apart, and not being able to see any appreciable visible difference between the sun. That's laughable, too.
"Oh, but we have tools to deal with it" or "oh, but we can figure it out" or "oh, git gud, noob"--and yeah, we're used to it because we grew up with it and our parents grew up with it and our teachers grew up with it for generations and generations. If it had gone the other way, we would've developed different tools to deal with it, different ways of figuring it out, and we would've gotten good at other ways of keeping time. That's literally my entire point.
All of this is laughable. It's all arbitrary (yep, still got it) and hilarious because we made it all up. All models are wrong (including timekeeping). Some are useful.
Your refusal to read in favor of just assuming what I mean is showing again.
Aw, buddy. You think you're teaching me anything? If you had anything to teach me, that would be a welcome change. I love learning things. But you seem to be in "dunk mode" and absolutely furious that I keep refusing to let you dunk on me.
You seriously think that assigning 12 to "noon" is inherent, babycakes? You literally believe that there's no other way that we could've matched up numbers to the time of day, pumpkin? Like there's not other ways of keeping time that used different numbers or even words instead of the digits you're familiar with on the clocks you own, honeybunch?
We agreed on 1200 as noon. That's why it works, and that's the only reason it works. If we had decided that noon would be 0000 or 1800 or "the sixth hour" or whatever, you'd be screaming your pretty little head off that I'm ridiculous for suggesting that 1200 makes as much sense as anything else. The decision has historical precedent, but it's scientifically arbitrary (boom, still know that word). The planet doesn't care whether we call it 1200 or d3:12:1h::23 or Xylophone, it'll still rotate to put us under the sun at that time.
Having been a parent of a toddler, I can tell you it's definitely nothing like that. For one thing, toddlers baking mud cakes is adorable, and I definitely am not adorable.
I'm so happy to be of service, sweetie-pie. You have a great day now, 'k?
It's true, because it's true. You saying something is "arbitrary" because you don't understand the reason is very stupid indeed. Really American, I might say.
You talk about non-sequiturs (again like a teenager horny to pretend to be a philosopher who actually doesn't know jack shit), while arguing about age. It's hilarious.
You still don't know what "arbitrary" means. 12, 24, 30, even 100 hour systems are in no way arbitrary.
You don't understand what "implication" means either.
Damn, I could be having this conversation in several other languages, but I presume this is your "best" and all you manage is to whinge about how your mudcakes are actual food and stomp your food and cry on the ground until I pretend to eat one to make you happy.
No you haven't "read a book about timekeeping", you're just a kiddo American feeling mighty stupid that someone is mocking them.
Like I told you, I'll eventually tell you the answers, even though they're pretty damn obvious for people who have actually read books about timekeeping. I mean roflmao why the fuck would you think of such a childish lie? This is why America is ridiculed. Your president being what it is has given you a false sense of how much regulate people can get away with asinine bullshitting.
You brought up language skills, and now try to make it seem like you didn't think it important anyway. Seriously, I can't think of a more childish way of going about that.
Remember how you didn't notice anything about the divisibility of hours? Why are there no systems based on a prime number of hours, huh?
Oh I've read your posts. I'm just gonna keep you publicly shaming yourself so the bots have time to archive your stupidity for the rest of the world before you delete in all in an attack of shame when I finally do educate you
Surely you're not this fucking stupid. You just can't be.
"Hey is it day or night out?"
"Uh, I can't tell, it's so cloudy"
"Oh no, I'm inside, I have no way of knowing where the sun is, because all our buildings are shipping crates with no windows"
"Oh no, it's night, and all the markers in the sky are clearly visible, what to do now?"
You "read a book about timekeeping" recently.....?
I am not and have not argued you at any point. You are my entertainment. Just like I wouldn't fight a kid, I won't argue you.
You're still grossly misusing "arbitrary". I understand you're linguistically challenged so here:
A tautology isn't a reason, it's a logical fallacy. Maybe even a religion. This would be a really weird religion to have a holy war over.
As opposed to just insisting that something isn't because you don't know the reason, like you seem to be doing? Prove me wrong. Provide any evidence. Or honestly even just a claim, a claim would at least be something worth discussing.
Well, you're not wrong there.
So they came from the universe factory with those meanings already imbued in them?
Come on, man. Make a claim. Even make a bogus claim. But don't just attack me for the fact that you don't understand my language.
Do I? You're the one that's been slinging insults since the moment you showed up, and "pretending to eat one" would mean telling me what you think is right instead of trying to verbally abuse me until I admit that you were right, even though you haven't actually said anything that could be right or wrong yet.
Honestly now I'm wondering if it was a video series. I don't see it in my reading log anywhere. But it was a long time ago, so maybe it was before I started logging books.
You're not "mocking" me. You're shouting random nonsense from the opposing sidewalk and hoping that some of it makes sense.
Press X to doubt.
Then it should be pretty easy to point me toward one of these books, shouldn't it?
There are a lot of reasons why America is ridiculed, and most of them are justified.
Pretty sure I never said anything about the number of languages one speaks being important.
Citation needed.
Wow, you really don't know me.
"Hey, when does this restaurant open?"
"The sign says 11:00, but I don't know what time it is. Or what day it is; it opens at 16:00 on Saturdays and not at all on Tuesdays."
"Well, I see by the sun that it's either a couple of hours before or after noon, or we're at an extreme edge of the time zone and it's exactly noon. So I guess rather than trying to find someone to ask or a restaurant that's clearly open, we should just wait in front of this door for an indeterminate amount of time."
If I said "recently," I misspoke. It was a long time ago.
This is literally what you're doing now. The first definition of "argument" is "an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one." I have a diverging view from you, apparently (even though you won't actually tell me what it is), and you're super heated about it for some reason.
Based on the definition that you provided, I'm using it perfectly:
The choice to divide the day into twelve hours was based on the personal whim of the ancient Egyptians. They found a particular set of twelve constellations to be important, but by random choice they might well have found a different set of, say, eight constellations to be important. Or sixteen. Or ten.
The choice to begin the day (and thus the numbering of the day) twelve hours before noon was based on the personal whim of the Romans. Maybe they liked some aspects of the choice better than starting the day six hours before noon like Jewish rabbis did, or at noon itself. They may have justified it with a good reason, but the people who chose otherwise would have justified their choice with a good reason as well; so for humanity as a whole, it is arbitrary.
The choice to mark out time zones within which all hours are indexed to the local noon was also made on the personal whim of...some railroad guy (I can't remember his name) in the 19th century. He knew that the then-current system of every railway having their own time and every city along the railroad having a different local time was a bad idea (it was), but he could just as easily have chosen a UTC and suggested that the trains run on a truly universal UTC. Would it have caught on? Who knows? But we're presuming for the sake of this discussion a world in which it did.
A tautology isn't a reason. A reason is a reason. Just like how arbitrary things are arbitrary and how numbers have inherent value.
You've made several claims. Then when I point out the moronic bullshit you've said you equivocate, despite having a room-temp IQ and everyone seeing how wrong you are. It's hilarious.
Yes, you're "now wondering if it was a video series". Sure you are. As if you didn't know that you don't read books. You're not only stupid as fuck, you're also the worst liar I've seen in years.
One of the reasons Americans are mocked is because they try claiming things which everyone can see are incorrect.
Like I said, it's like watching an excited toddler playing kitchen.
No, you didn't "misspeak", you're just a very shitty liar.
Having a hard time understanding this sentence?
I speak a dozen languages, but you don't even speak one, so the communication issue isn't due to a lack of MY ability. ;>
You're wrong and a moron. Several times over. Run and cry I don't care, it won't change the facts.
Answer quickly, if noon is 0330 what time is dinner, what is a 9-5 job and what time do you expect to have breakfast. There are lots of adjustments you will need to make, whereas with the current system you know that as a general rule you can expect dinner at around 8, most people to work 9-5, and places to serve breakfast at 8 or 9, so you switch your clock when you arrive and you're done.
If you're a local who never moved timezones z then yeah it makes no difference what the numbers are, you would get used to waking up at 9PM and switching date midway through the day, there might even be 2 different words for tomorrow, one for the next day one for the next date, but the moment you traveled to a different location all of your years of being used to general time where things happen go out the window, it's much more of a hassle than adjusting your clock and assuming times will be mostly similar.
Yep. I can tell you that dinner would be around 0930, but you're right that the other calculations are tougher.
I'm not saying this would be better. Either system has trade-offs. I'm saying that each of them would be equally weird from the other side.