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Why are you assuming that I'm arguing Ukraine can win the war? I'm just saying that this is really just propaganda to mobilize more production of FPV drones. Is me questioning you on that enough for you to make such assumptions?
And that by definition makes it not a wunderwaffe. You cannot make wunderwaffes in your kitchen.
I'm not assuming that. I'm just noting that it doesn't even matter how effective the drones are. My overall point is that there's nothing special about drones. Russian advantage in the war stems from having a stronger industrial base than the west.
It does matter how effective the drones are if the drones are the most effective thing the Ukrainians have. And your still trying to have a completely different discussion about whether its enough to win the war.
If we agree that drones aren't changing the direction of the war, then they're by definition not effective at accomplishing anything other than dragging things out.
I really think you need to go and reread ZWQbpkzi's comments Yog, they're literally not commenting on the direction of the war or whether the drones can win. You're being needlessly aggressive in arguing completely unrelated points to what they've actually said.
But what does effective even mean in that context?
Not effective, most effective, as in not as ineffective as other weapons they have access to. They're speaking in relative terms solely within what the equipment available to the Ukrainian military at the moment, not absolute terms of winning a war.
I ask again, most effective at doing what?
...attacking russian positions? What else would the Ukrainian Army be using weapons for?
I feel like we're talking past each other here. What I'm saying is that it only makes sense to talk about effectiveness in the context of achieving overarching goals. Your frame measures effectiveness within Ukraine’s constraints saying that drones are better than sticks. My frame measures it against actual war goals like halting Russian advances. It's like saying that if I jump out of a plane and my parachute doesn't open, then it's more effective for me to flap my arms than not.
OK, sure, whatever, let's use your framework - FPV drones are more effective at halting russian advances than their infantry, tanks, and artillery. The point that I told you 3 comments ago that you are talking past is that Ukranian soldiers are going to say they don't have enough regardless of actual stock, because they're the best weapon they have available to field against the russians.
Flapping my arms when I fall out of a plane is more effective than not flapping my arms.
So now fpv drones aren't having any effect on the Russian forces? They're literally as effective as standing around doing nothing? Why has it taken so long for Russia to take over then?
What point are you even trying to make? That Ukrainians aren't claiming they need more drones? It's your article that makes the claim.
The point I'm making is blindingly obvious. The drones aren't changing anything. The end result will be exactly the same whether Ukraine has the drones or not.
So what? What does that have to do with ZWQ's comment? What relevance does it have to why Ukrainian soldiers are saying they need more? This is why I told you to reread the comment, you, like I said in my original comment, have spent this entire conversation talking past everyone else here to make a point nobody is disagreeing with or cares about.
What makes you think your opinion on relative and absolute effectiveness means anything to Ukrainian soldiers? Do you really think they give a single fuck what weapons some armchair general thinks they should have if they want to win the war, compared to the things they can actually access?
I explained my position very clearly and repeatedly. If nobody here cares about what this is all is for then y'all are just trolling.
The one thing the supply of drones is unequivocally achieving is ensuring that more Ukrainians die to achieve the exact same outcome that would've been achieved faster without the drones, which is that Ukraine will lose the war. So, I suppose you're right that the drones are effective at ensuring there is more suffering in the process of achieving the outcome.
I should revise my earlier analogy. It's not so much like flapping your arms while you're falling, it's stabbing yourself in the eye with a rusty fork on the way down.
So no, you don't have anything relevent to ZWQ's comment to add to the conversation, you just really really need to let everyone know that fpv drones arent dangerous actually and in fact are creating new russians, not killing any.
You really are one of those people who just need to argue for the sake of arguing.
Flapping my arms when I fall out of a plane is more effective than not flapping my arms. 🤷
Yes, that's literally the same statement.
If it can drag out the war then it's actually effective even if its only to buy them time to negotiate.
Wait, wait, wait, you genuinely think this is going to work in their interest in the end? 🤦
Let's just review how that's worked out so far. Before the war started, Ukraine could've implemented Minsk agreements and kept all of its territory. Two weeks into the war, it could've simply agreed not to join NATO, and kept most of its territory. Then in 2024, it could've just lost Donbas and Luhansk, now Ukraine going to lose everything east of Dnepr. Every single day the war continues Ukrainian position deteriorates, and they will lose more people and territory as a result. If this goes long enough there's not going to be an Ukraine left.
Buddy, I understand you'd really prefer if that was my position but I've told you repeatedly its not. It is either an insulting lack of reading comprehension or willful ignorance that you keep insisting that's my position. Let me spell my position out for you:
This is all I have ever tried to claim. But you somehow keep wishing I was some pro-Ukraine lib because in that fantasy you can win some internet points.
maybe you can help me, a dumdum with poor reading comprehension, to parse this then
And yes, nobody is arguing with you that fpv drones are a form of ammunition. Whether Russia would've been in Kiev or not without them many months ago is debatable however. You simply have to look at the size of the front and the numbers of people involved to see that a few thousand drones a day cannot possibly be the decisive factor in Russian advance.