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Are we all "Anti-AI Trolls"? Enforcement of instance rules and community standards.
(lemmy.dbzer0.com)
This is a community in the spirit of "Am I The Asshole" where people can post their own bans from lemmy or reddit or whatever and get some feedback from others whether the ban was justified or not.
Sometimes one just wants to be able to challenge the arguments some mod made and this could be the place for that.
All posts should follow this basic structure:
Expect to receive feedback about your posts, they might even be negative.
Make sure you follow this instance's code of conduct. In other words we won't allow bellyaching about being sanctioned for hate speech or bigotry.
YTPB matrix channel: For real-time discussions about bastards or to appeal mod actions in YPTB itself.
Some acronyms you might see.
Relevant comms
I didn't do any of the things you said, nothing even close to it, and I got banned. That's what I mean by "uninvolved parties." I'm sure I am not the only one.
My apologies, you didn't but others in this thread from Hexbear and previous posts have said "Ban me, I don't wanna see it anyways."
This is such a weird conversation.
"Your honor, we're asking for the ability to send this man to prison."
"But he hasn't done anything..."
"Yes, but others have, and they've sent death threats to the prosecutor, too. They're the worst. I rest my case."
What we are talking about is the systematic and ongoing harassment of this mod by anti genAI trolls, who are perfectly happy to use tranphobic abuse, misgendering, threats of violence, calls to suicide, and any number of other hateful tactics to bully and harass the mod, simply for having the temerity to like genAI as a hobby.
Mystic has adopted proactive bans to protect zir mental health as much as anything else. The exact same type of harassment happens towards blajah users, just for existing. To be honest, I suspect some of the anti-trans trolls have changed focus to trolling about genAI, because this mod also happens to be trans. So it's a 2x bonus target for them :(
I'd be more concerned if instance bans were being handed out like candy for downvoting, but they aren't. They are nearly all community bans from just a small handful of communities. Is it really a big deal getting a random ban from a community you don't particularly care about in order to help protect the mod of that community from a harassment campaign? Since you like your Socrates, which one of those two things is worse? Which one is more likely to lead to self harm or psychological damage?
Unfortunately, some folks get caught up in these bans where it turns out they were just going about their day. I can understand people getting upset with copping a ban they feel they didn't deserve. But if you send a quick DM to the mod explaining your case, I'm pretty sure they will be willing to unban you.
I've been trying to disentangle from this whole thing, since I feel like I've reiterated what I had to say about it at some length for people who are interested to hear it, but I'll address this:
Instigating balkanization and random attacks on random users, and then justifying it by getting all histrionic about how some totally different person did something horrible (and, obviously, was banned for it) and somehow that needs to attach to me and OP, because reasons, is harmful. It is itself a harassment campaign. It also, as I keep pointing out, has literally nothing at all to do with protecting this moderator from the original actual harassment campaign. It's like "stop and frisk." It's like throwing all the communists in prison because one allegedly set fire to the Reichstag. It won't solve the problem, it's just an excuse to attack.
I don't care about the ban itself, certainly not enough to speak directly to the mod in question and risk being attacked for "harassing" them by sending them DMs. They're welcome to weigh in here if they want, I'm sure they're aware of the conversation. My concern is with the underlying logic and people doubling down on it here. Picking fights with random people for no reason at all, declaring them as enemies because of a vague alleged association with some enemy "community," and encouraging tribalization of the space into a series of little "with us or against us" houses because of the actions of a handful of dickheads, hurts all of us. Making excuses for it, because the tribe of the person doing the balkanization happens to line up with your tribe, is also I would argue actually hurting their mental health also in the long run. You're missing an opportunity to call them out on behaviors which if they're doing them in real life will hurt them a lot more than anything that can happen just with the keyboard and screens.
I get the idea that they've been hurt by these attacks and they feel like they need to start lashing out and everyone becomes an enemy who does anything even vaguely (not really) similar, and so if they can throw enough preemptive accusations at anything that even reminds them of the other thing, then they'll feel safe. If that is what is happening, then I get it. I think the solution, like I already said, would be more of an open dialogue with that person. Honestly I think maybe the people they're close to (i.e. not me, who's already classed as an "enemy" somehow) should be making sure they feel supported and like people are going to go to bat for them against any trolls or attackers who come their way. I'm sure there are plenty of drive-by "lol AI sucks" comments coming into these communities from time to time. If they feel like they're alone and already vulnerable and then it gets coupled with more vicious attacks once people sense that they're vulnerable (which, again, this is all instigating 10 times more of), then yeah that can be really distressing. I get it. If that's what is going on. So just be vigorous against the actual problem.
If I were the type of malicious person who liked to throw insults and create new accounts to sling mud at someone who I knew it would really work effectively to upset, then getting banned from these random communities and then finding out the whole drama would definitely put them 100% on my radar as a worthwhile target to attack. I think a good conversation with the mod helping them understand some of how this stuff functions and making sure they know that the db0 admins will be in their corner when something does inevitably happen would help them to feel actually better about it and be able to be in a better mental state, where what they're currently doing will do the opposite. But also, the flip side of that is protecting other people against them, making sure that you're not just feeding into any particular attack that someone who's in the club feels like making at any time against someone who's not in it.
Does that make sense? Maybe not, that's just how I see it.
It does make sense and thanks for explaining your position and showing some compassion.
I just don't know 100% what the best thing to do here is. We're all just kinda sick of the constant trolling. And while I acknowledge the bans have caused some drama, most of the yptb posts about them, with a couple of exceptions, have turned out to be from some of the worst offenders.
I really think a lot of this problem could be easily engineered away by turning off downvotes from external instances or something similar. But the way lemmy development is going, I'm not holding my breath for those options. If we end up getting a piefed instance, I'll think I'll be recommending all the genAI communities move there.
I do think we probably need to have an admin team discussion about downvote bans in general and set some firmer guidelines for mods.
Yeah, I get it. Seeing more of the context, it's easy to be compassionate. Just someone out of the blue accusing me of being a troll and banning me and then a bunch of people jumping in talking about this whole community of transphobic harassing dickheads and sort of implying I must be one of them, if this mod saw fit to ban me (definitely not saying anything along the lines of "Yes, if someone hasn't done anything wrong, they shouldn't be banned" or other calming sensible statements), that's going to delay the onset of the compassion. The social contract goes both ways, generally my MO is that if people start attacking me I'm not super friendly to them.
I just posted up some thoughts to !fediverse@piefed.social about voting in general and how I think Lemmy's fundamental design could be improved about it. I don't think realistically there's anything that could be done as a complete "fix" from my POV, although there are realistic things that could help, but it's good at least to be able to widen the perspective a little about why we're in this position of having these problems and how other systems have dealt with them in the past.
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/5038 adds this, 1.0 only unfortunately, but looking at the code it looks like you could get away with backporting it.
It is weird that people are asking to be banned by the mod team so they can avoid going to places they don't like, I agree. Shit is God damn weird.